04-04-2022, 01:43 PMGooney Wrote: ohh sorry. it just looked like you were implying that hammy doesn’t win because of good sim knowledge/drafting well/strong locker room but more because of magical reasons. my bad
Nope! this conversation is not about you or Hamilton at all, I was simply saying I don't like it when people compare the two situations because they're very different and the same strategies for addressing things can't really apply to both.
A. J Cap is critical to the success of the J. Raising that cap would decrease parity and increase J and mid earners getting dunked on. You're way off base wanting the cap raised, and your actual issues are with the SHL environment that makes 3rd year callups pretty undesirable by players and GMs.
B. @RomanesEuntDomus is super dialed in, and it's been something that some of us have been saying for months going on years now. People, first gens mostly, don't want to go to the SHL. Part of that is the fact that J teams have that initial connection, but part of it is that the SHL as a league, the teams, and the GMs actively do a shit job in making it a place that first gens want to be. Early callups are rare because players want to stay down, offering early call up compensatory picks would alleviate some of the implicit pressure to have their players play in the J longer, but this is a small slice of a much bigger "I don't want to play in the SHL" pie.
C. The SHL is rapid fire applying changes to increase player throughput, getting them to the SHL quicker, and getting them out quicker. Regardless of my personal takes on how that's being implemented, I'd love to slow it down and not mess with J systems while we can't see what's going to happen on the SHL level and the ensuing downstream effects.
04-04-2022, 12:28 PMsköldpaddor Wrote: suuuper agree with this. I see people all the time referring to Newfoundland as "hamilton junior" or whatever and I really think that has the incredibly undesirable side effect of making it seem like they are identical situations because of a similar symptom (oh no, one team is winning everything all the time and it's not fun for the rest of us). imo, Newfoundland is dominant because they are both good at FHM and extremely good at the other GM stuff like drafting well, signing free agents, and keeping those players active and engaged. This is one of my pet peeves here too because that second set of stuff is the stuff that should factor in heavily when it comes to a team being dominant. Equating the HAM/NL situations is detrimental to having a productive conversation about either league.
I think it is very unfair to compare both situations when you seem to have a lot of insight into one of the teams and no insight into the other.
04-04-2022, 02:31 PM(This post was last modified: 04-04-2022, 02:32 PM by spooked. Edited 1 time in total.)
04-04-2022, 05:58 AMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote: I'm not really sure how to solve that but I guess it is connected to the fact that there has been a certain shift in the SMJHL where winning is emphasized a bit more over developing players than it used to be. Maybe the switch to FHM played a role there as well because it introduced a clearer distinction between teams that have a shot and those who don't, but I don't think it's a particularly new development, it has been like that for a long time. An SMJHL team that drafts a player and then develops him so well that he already is ready for SHL action after just two seasons should be proud of what they achieved and not sad or mad about losing them, but that's always easy to say from the outside. It's much more frustrating when you are a GM in a league where your windows for competing have become so small, and losing one or even multiple of your core pieces in that window can be heartbreaking, especially when all you did wrong was doing "too well" when scouting and developing your talent.
Honestly, the J is not a development league anymore. It operates essentially on it's own without much oversight from actual SHL HO/Commish in terms of intention of the league, and the J HO doesn't really seem to want to compromise their own competitiveness to accommodate development style changes from what I saw, now maybe that has changed or maybe they would take some, but I personally never saw much flexibility.
04-04-2022, 05:58 AMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote: I'm not really sure how to solve that but I guess it is connected to the fact that there has been a certain shift in the SMJHL where winning is emphasized a bit more over developing players than it used to be. Maybe the switch to FHM played a role there as well because it introduced a clearer distinction between teams that have a shot and those who don't, but I don't think it's a particularly new development, it has been like that for a long time. An SMJHL team that drafts a player and then develops him so well that he already is ready for SHL action after just two seasons should be proud of what they achieved and not sad or mad about losing them, but that's always easy to say from the outside. It's much more frustrating when you are a GM in a league where your windows for competing have become so small, and losing one or even multiple of your core pieces in that window can be heartbreaking, especially when all you did wrong was doing "too well" when scouting and developing your talent.
Honestly, the J is not a development league anymore. It operates essentially on it's own without much oversight from actual SHL HO/Commish in terms of intention of the league, and the J HO doesn't really seem to want to compromise their own competitiveness to accommodate development style changes from what I saw, now maybe that has changed or maybe they would take some, but I personally never saw much flexibility.
I strongly disagree. The J very much still is a development league, as we have our set goals of development and retainment. Just because we may not develop directly into the SHL does not mean these players are no longer developing at all, and instead speaks to the overall and frequently aforementioned issue that players outright don't want to leave the J. I fail to see how our autonomy and ability to be self-sufficient instead of relying on a different League's head office is a fault, when I instead find our current professional courtesies and conversations helpful and beneficial to all involved. Why should SMJHL HO not have oversight of the SMJHL? Not once, for as far as I've been in SMJHL HO, "not wanted to compromise our own competitiveness to accommodate development style changes" to paraphrase your own words, and I'd be interested in hearing how we've done so in the past. The last update scale changes were not made with the SMJHL's parity or health in mind beyond hoping to result in more callups, which already strongarms our ability to handle competitive balance.
I know you probably didn't mean it this way, but this feels like a slap in the face to call us inflexible when we have done nothing but rewrite the rulebook and restructure our interior departments multiple times over multiple seasons so as to better accommodate the needs of the J.
04-04-2022, 12:28 PMsköldpaddor Wrote: suuuper agree with this. I see people all the time referring to Newfoundland as "hamilton junior" or whatever and I really think that has the incredibly undesirable side effect of making it seem like they are identical situations because of a similar symptom (oh no, one team is winning everything all the time and it's not fun for the rest of us). imo, Newfoundland is dominant because they are both good at FHM and extremely good at the other GM stuff like drafting well, signing free agents, and keeping those players active and engaged. This is one of my pet peeves here too because that second set of stuff is the stuff that should factor in heavily when it comes to a team being dominant. Equating the HAM/NL situations is detrimental to having a productive conversation about either league.
I think it is very unfair to compare both situations when you seem to have a lot of insight into one of the teams and no insight into the other.
I am quite literally asking people not to compare the situations.
04-04-2022, 02:26 PMWaters Wrote: I think it is very unfair to compare both situations when you seem to have a lot of insight into one of the teams and no insight into the other.
I am quite literally asking people not to compare the situations.
but they are very comparable no? all the reasons you listed newfoundland being dominant applies to hamilton. unless you think otherwise?
04-04-2022, 02:31 PMspooked Wrote: Honestly, the J is not a development league anymore. It operates essentially on it's own without much oversight from actual SHL HO/Commish in terms of intention of the league, and the J HO doesn't really seem to want to compromise their own competitiveness to accommodate development style changes from what I saw, now maybe that has changed or maybe they would take some, but I personally never saw much flexibility.
I strongly disagree. The J very much still is a development league, as we have our set goals of development and retainment. Just because we may not develop directly into the SHL does not mean these players are no longer developing at all, and instead speaks to the overall and frequently aforementioned issue that players outright don't want to leave the J. I fail to see how our autonomy and ability to be self-sufficient instead of relying on a different League's head office is a fault, when I instead find our current professional courtesies and conversations helpful and beneficial to all involved. Why should SMJHL HO not have oversight of the SMJHL? Not once, for as far as I've been in SMJHL HO, "not wanted to compromise our own competitiveness to accommodate development style changes" to paraphrase your own words, and I'd be interested in hearing how we've done so in the past. The last update scale changes were not made with the SMJHL's parity or health in mind beyond hoping to result in more callups, which already strongarms our ability to handle competitive balance.
I know you probably didn't mean it this way, but this feels like a slap in the face to call us inflexible when we have done nothing but rewrite the rulebook and restructure our interior departments multiple times over multiple seasons so as to better accommodate the needs of the J.
How is smjhl a developmental league when there are career junior players?
04-04-2022, 02:46 PMACapitalChicago Wrote: I strongly disagree. The J very much still is a development league, as we have our set goals of development and retainment. Just because we may not develop directly into the SHL does not mean these players are no longer developing at all, and instead speaks to the overall and frequently aforementioned issue that players outright don't want to leave the J. I fail to see how our autonomy and ability to be self-sufficient instead of relying on a different League's head office is a fault, when I instead find our current professional courtesies and conversations helpful and beneficial to all involved. Why should SMJHL HO not have oversight of the SMJHL? Not once, for as far as I've been in SMJHL HO, "not wanted to compromise our own competitiveness to accommodate development style changes" to paraphrase your own words, and I'd be interested in hearing how we've done so in the past. The last update scale changes were not made with the SMJHL's parity or health in mind beyond hoping to result in more callups, which already strongarms our ability to handle competitive balance.
I know you probably didn't mean it this way, but this feels like a slap in the face to call us inflexible when we have done nothing but rewrite the rulebook and restructure our interior departments multiple times over multiple seasons so as to better accommodate the needs of the J.
How is smjhl a developmental league when there are career junior players?
The exception does not make the rule. Please name the career J players and how they make up the majority of the SMJHL. Just because people perceive this boogeyman of career J players does not mean that is the standard, nor does it properly address the issues resulting in said career J players and how the SHL is unpalatable to them.
04-04-2022, 02:26 PMWaters Wrote: I think it is very unfair to compare both situations when you seem to have a lot of insight into one of the teams and no insight into the other.
I am quite literally asking people not to compare the situations.
That’s not what it reads like to me. Saying that nl isn’t hammy junior and then listing all the good things about nl implies that hamilton does not do those things. If you didn’t mean that, it doesn’t look that way.
04-04-2022, 02:50 PMsköldpaddor Wrote: I am quite literally asking people not to compare the situations.
That’s not what it reads like to me. Saying that nl isn’t hammy junior and then listing all the good things about nl implies that hamilton does not do those things. If you didn’t mean that, it doesn’t look that way.
sorry let me rephrase.
j parity conversation is a different conversation than SHL parity conversation
04-04-2022, 03:09 PMHallsy Wrote: How is smjhl a developmental league when there are career junior players?
The exception does not make the rule. Please name the career J players and how they make up the majority of the SMJHL. Just because people perceive this boogeyman of career J players does not mean that is the standard, nor does it properly address the issues resulting in said career J players and how the SHL is unpalatable to them.
I haven't actually counted but someone said there's 6 on just newfoundland.
04-04-2022, 03:13 PMWaters Wrote: That’s not what it reads like to me. Saying that nl isn’t hammy junior and then listing all the good things about nl implies that hamilton does not do those things. If you didn’t mean that, it doesn’t look that way.
sorry let me rephrase.
j parity conversation is a different conversation than SHL parity conversation
hope this helps
i don’t know the league well enough to discuss parity issue but i don’t think you do either frankly. everything you listed could be applied to either league. good gms do good, which both hamilton and newfoundland clearly have.
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