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Crunk · 07-15-2022, 02:38 PM

Hi, I’m Crunk. There’s a chance you’ve heard of me, God forbid even spoken to me, in other leagues, but a larger chance that you haven’t. For the latter group of people, allow me to give some context.

I am a terrible human and one the SHL doesn’t want as a member. I am the lowest of the low and should be treated as such. That’s right - I am a sim tester.

I mean, I am a recovering sim tester. I got my three week chip the other day at a meeting where a number of like minded individuals trudged in, bared their souls about all the damage sim testing did to their lives, then left and immediately went back to thinking about repeatedly simulating games on Franchise Hockey Manager 8.

This seems like a good point to include a clarification: I no longer sim test as HO have banned it. I am actually petrified that I might somehow choose some magic combination of attributes for my player that makes him a beast, as writing this stuff feels like I am painting a huge target on my back.

Introductions out of the way, I’ll get to the point here:

I think HO have overreacted by banning all forms of sim testing

Notice the language I have used here, and allow me to explain. There are two forms of sim testing.

The first type is the grindy, boring, Team A vs Team B optimisation that teams would typically perform during the playoffs. Hours and hours spent to optimise lines and roles. Maybe you gain 2% in win rate. To be clear, this was the type of testing that I personally did the most and I am absolutely fine with it being banned. Keep the sim file under lock and key for all I care.

The second type is a more general type of sim testing. The kind where take a non-league file and you alter attributes and roles to try to find out what different settings or attributes actually do. This was the type of sim testing that I was looking forward to doing with a sim change, and the type of sim testing that I believe should not be banned.

I’ll now state a few reasons why. I am sure that some, if not all, of them have been discussed to death in locker rooms, and even in HO, but what the hell, I need media dollar.

The ban is virtually unenforceable

Head Office know this, you know this, everyone knows this. You can keep the sim file as secure as possible - there’s absolutely nothing stopping people playing FHM and simply noticing things. In fact, this is allowed. What is not allowed is making some edits to a FHM file and spotting the effects of those edits.

Except there’s absolutely no way to tell if this has been done. If I can keep my foot fetish folder hidden from my girlfriend, I don’t fancy HO’s chances of finding a few bytes of altered data in an FHM file they don’t know exists. Their method of getting around this - report your evil sim testing teammates - should be great for the community… as long as your idea of a utopian society is Salem in the early 1690s. But I will get to that.

Also, it being unenforceable means…

People are almost certainly going to do it anyway

I can only imagine HO know this one too. Ban something you can’t effectively detect, and it’s worthless. If you combine that with the countless hours some people have put into developing methods for sim testing and the fact that some people are just hyper competitive by nature (these are both things that apply to me, for what it’s worth) then you’re simply setting up failure.

There’s just going to be too much temptation for some people to get an edge. Those who do will probably get away with it, too, unless they start broadcasting the fact they are doing it. So those people will prosper over those who obey the rules. Or will they? We won’t know.

Whoever succeeds in the new sim, you can be sure of one thing…

There will be witch hunts

You just know whoever wins the Challenge Cup this season will be under immediate suspicion. Fortunately sim leagues are inherently averse to drama and people remain respectful and level headed in discussions. Fucking /s.

It’s a good job that there are no real witch hunts any more, as I am telepathic. Don’t believe me? Let’s try an experiment:

Imagine it’s the end of the season already. Hamilton just won the Challenge Cup final 4-0. What’s the first image that pops into your head?

You’re thinking of either a tire fire or a mushroom cloud. Yes you were, don’t lie.

While this is obviously an extreme example, I fully expect some drama if a particular team or player performs too well. I doubt that will be great for the community.

And speaking of Hamilton and things they may have been rumoured to have done…

(Whoever did the testing at Hamilton - massive respect, by the way. Not for the championships or anything, for the myth of Hamilton sim testing. The level of mystery and general intrigue surrounding your methods was just relentlessly entertaining.)

Decompiling isn’t explicitly banned

If anyone is unaware, decompiling is where you get a (usually cracked) version of the game and run a program to extract the game code and look through it. It’s a process that’s usually massively time consuming, but it can yield some truly game breaking stuff.

I don’t even know if it is possible to do to FHM8, and I won’t be attempting to personally. I honestly hate it anyway. In my experience, people who decompile tend to be experts on specifics, who from this can easily fool themselves into thinking they know more than they do about a sim engine. A bit like someone who has convinced themselves they could be a Formula 1 driver because they understand the inner mechanism of a seat belt. And that’s assuming they even read the code correctly. Woops.

In short, decompiling has the potential to be far more harmful than the general sim testing I am advocating for. At least GMs would be able to give advice, which leads me on to…

So much TPE could be unwittingly wasted

My exceedingly unethical GMs used to offer build advice. Not unsolicited advice, people routinely asked for it. Most players just want to be productive, often in a certain aspect of the game - goals, assists, hits, whatever. GMs used to have a good idea of how to help players build to accomplish their individual goals. Now what are players to do?

I mean, it’s a fair bet that shooting accuracy will help your shot %, but.. does it? Your GM doesn’t know that one for sure any more. Also, certain attributes work well combined with others usually, but we can’t know what they are any more.

Builds will either follow FHM6 knowledge and hope it has remained consistent, or just be guesswork. That’s super fun for someone investing time in a league job to max earn.

Speaking of reduced GM workload…

Strats are just guesswork now

Unless the lovely folk at OOTP Developments have produced a perfect simulation of hockey, there will be certain strategies that work better than others.

Teams that tried to figure out what those were previously would be rewarded with more wins. I guess they still will be, but it will be significantly harder to do. What used to be a game of sim knowledge in setting lines and strats is now guesswork. The role of GM has been reduced, and I think this is a shame.

I guess what the last couple of points can be boiled down to is…

RNG and guesswork will have more impact than ever

I’m no expert in game design, but I know that RNG is a contentious topic among experts. Too little and outcomes are too predictable, but too much leads to frustration. I can’t help but feel that this boost to the significance of RNG will lead to frustration.

And don’t get me started on guesswork. Making impactful decisions based on no knowledge is just the opposite of fun. In my opinion, anyway.

Speaking of fun…

Some of us enjoy sim testing

Believe it or not, some people actually do. A new game engine is a puzzle that is begging to be explored.

Though the ban on the sim file is completely defensible to combat over-optimisation, why can’t we just try some stuff out on the game engine without it having any SHL teams in it?

I imagine I speak for more than just myself when I say I was looking forward to seeing what the new sim had to offer. Maybe not, I don’t know. I’ve been trying to beat the engines of sports games since Championship Manager 01/02. You could put a little arrow from a midfielder up to between the strikers, and he would score goals for fun. It was great.

This brings me to one final thing that is worth mentioning here…

Anyone can sim test FHM (when it’s not banned)

The great myth of sim testing is that it is somehow difficult. Anyone with the desire to could find a method of automating clicks on their screen via Google. Once you’ve conquered that, the only real wrinkle was finding a way to close FHM without saving the game, which had a few solutions of varying elegance.

It really wasn’t that hard, it just took a little effort to get yourself set up initially. And GMs that used to put forth that effort were rewarded accordingly. It has been decided that this reward for effort should be completely removed in favour of more randomness, and this - to me at least - is a detriment to the league in general.

In conclusion…

I think there’s a balance that can be found between simple exploration of the sim engine and optimising everything within an inch of its life, and I believe this balance is actually healthy for the league as a whole. I’m not shitting on Head Office here, I don’t really expect these ramblings to change anything, or even start a conversation, but I need the media money. So with that in mind, if HO have any issue with specific parts of what I have written here, I am happy to remove them from the article. (Crunk #9628 on Discord, if needed.) If that is the case, I’ll have to use a quote from the late Abraham Lincoln - “I still want fucking paying”.

***RAmenAmen*** · 07-15-2022, 02:48 PM

I agree with some of this, and disagree with some of this. Mostly, I just want to be on the eventual thread team. Looking forward to a completely rational and polite discussion.

***HabsFanFromOntario*** · 07-15-2022, 02:53 PM

I think the biggest issue with sim testing is when you figure out what's good, it becomes the only thing to do.

*leviadan* · 07-15-2022, 03:04 PM

I think this has a lot of good points, I agree that I don't find it as fun to be taking shots in the dark with my attributes and no longer knowing what will actually make my player effective. I'm clearly on the decline now so it's not as relevant, but it seems like a valid concern to worry that one could build a 2k player that just totally sucks. A GM used to be able to help guide you but now they aren't allowed to know what makes a good player? Or they are, but not through direct testing... just like reading the manual? I'm not even 100% sure what is and isn't banned. Are they allowed to play FHM recreationally without the SHL teams and learn the game really well? Or that's also illegal?

I tend to think that making as much sim knowledge as possible public would be more effective than an outright ban on testing, but what the hell do I know. I've never played FHM in my life so my opinion probably isn't worth much.

[Image: pin1_1.gif?ex=661a1734&is=6607a234&hm=b8...1bf5caed8&]

***micool132*** · 07-15-2022, 03:05 PM

well written Crunk, this was an interesting read.

Matteo · 07-15-2022, 03:40 PM

I'll defend randomness in the SHL always. Randomness is one of the biggest draws in sports, nobody knows who will win until the game is over, that's what makes it fun and keeps you on the edge of your seat. In a simulation sports league I'll take randomness over knowing one of four teams will win before the season even starts every time.

***Ragnar*** · 07-15-2022, 03:43 PM

We haven’t had a real good witch hunt in a long time and I’m foaming at the mouth for one

Sigs by Me, Merica, High Stick King, Rum_Ham, Jess, vulfzilla, enigmatic, and Carpy

❤!! RIP to the big homies 701 and Mac !!❤

caltroit_red_flames · 07-15-2022, 03:56 PM

07-15-2022, 03:04 PMleviadan Wrote: I agree that I don't find it as fun to be taking shots in the dark with my attributes and no longer knowing what will actually make my player effective.

Would you not prefer to have a fun idea for a player and try to make that rather than be told "these are the best attributes do that"? There was so much excitement around FHM before the meta was found. So many people were excited to make a grinder, a pure goal scorer, a defensive defenseman.

***Rotti*** · 07-15-2022, 03:56 PM

FHM is not DDSFPFPSFPSPF or whatever its called. There is no automation of the sim, there are infinitely more moving parts to the sim. Sim results are shaky at best in the SHL due to the fact that individual seasons sim differently compared to mass sim testing. It is better to outlaw it, especially when many teams were hurting their results by constantly changing and testing different strategies. I'm sure any teams that are witch hunted will be backed up by their common gm's, as it seems GM chat has found a decent common ground on this issue of not sim testing at all.

Merica · 07-15-2022, 04:06 PM

#FreeSimTesters

Bfine · 07-15-2022, 04:06 PM

07-15-2022, 03:04 PMleviadan Wrote: I think this has a lot of good points, I agree that I don't find it as fun to be taking shots in the dark with my attributes and no longer knowing what will actually make my player effective. I'm clearly on the decline now so it's not as relevant, but it seems like a valid concern to worry that one could build a 2k player that just totally sucks. A GM used to be able to help guide you but now they aren't allowed to know what makes a good player? Or they are, but not through direct testing... just like reading the manual? I'm not even 100% sure what is and isn't banned. Are they allowed to play FHM recreationally without the SHL teams and learn the game really well? Or that's also illegal?

I tend to think that making as much sim knowledge as possible public would be more effective than an outright ban on testing, but what the hell do I know. I've never played FHM in my life so my opinion probably isn't worth much.

To be fair in the FHM6 world @Tylar had a 2200 TPE player that sucked lol

***DrunkenTeddy*** · 07-15-2022, 04:06 PM

07-15-2022, 04:06 PMMerica Wrote: #FreeSimTesters

People do that shit for free?

|

Merica · 07-15-2022, 04:07 PM

07-15-2022, 04:06 PMDrunkenTeddy Wrote:
07-15-2022, 04:06 PMMerica Wrote: #FreeSimTesters
People do that shit for free?

Keep your voice down

spooked · 07-15-2022, 04:09 PM

kekw

Crunk · 07-15-2022, 04:09 PM

07-15-2022, 03:56 PMRotticusScott Wrote: FHM is not DDSFPFPSFPSPF or whatever its called.

Ooh, this feels quite personal, I'm here for it.

Quote:There is no automation of the sim

OK, that's just objectively wrong, but carry on.

Quote:there are infinitely more moving parts to the sim.

"Infinitely" is kinda strong, but I get what you are saying. Definitely lots of moving parts.

Quote:Sim results are shaky at best in the SHL due to the fact that individual seasons sim differently compared to mass sim testing.

I honestly don't know what you mean by this.

Quote:It is better to outlaw it, especially when many teams were hurting their results by constantly changing and testing different strategies. I'm sure any teams that are witch hunted will be backed up by their common gm's, as it seems GM chat has found a decent common ground on this issue of not sim testing at all.

Hmmm. The whole crux of what I was saying was "keep the league file hidden, but maybe let us play with the sim a bit so we know what attributes do". So maybe we agree on strat testing? I honestly can't tell.

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