I don’t have much to add to what you have put into your original post, but what I can say is as a user who registered on 4-23 is that it took almost a month to feel any sort of excitement. To be honest, if I weren’t already an active ISFL user I probably would’ve forgot all about the league because there just wasn’t shit to do.
05-19-2023, 06:30 AM(This post was last modified: 05-19-2023, 07:00 AM by RomanesEuntDomus. Edited 1 time in total.)
05-19-2023, 04:32 AMsoevil Wrote: I don’t have much to add to what you have put into your original post, but what I can say is as a user who registered on 4-23 is that it took almost a month to feel any sort of excitement. To be honest, if I weren’t already an active ISFL user I probably would’ve forgot all about the league because there just wasn’t shit to do.
Yeah that's another issue that I think is flying a bit under the radar. There is a lot of downtime these days, ironically because our seasons are running so smooth and efficiently now compared to in the past. Obviously people with jobs need time in the off-season to not burn out, but with regular seasons just a few weeks long now, everyone who doesn't go deep in the playoffs or isn't even on a team yet, will essentially have no games going on for more than 50% of the time.
05-19-2023, 06:59 AM(This post was last modified: 05-19-2023, 07:46 AM by RomanesEuntDomus. Edited 1 time in total.)
05-18-2023, 12:40 PMKeven Wrote: For anyone who wants the full tables, here's the last 15 seasons of both the NHL and SHL.
Is the goal of the league to replicate the NHL as closely as possible? No. Is it really possible for the SHL to replicate the NHL with only 20 teams in the league? Also no.
I'd argue that although the SHL playoffs could definitely use a bit more randomness, the only real issue with predictability comes from seeds 11-16 being included as free first round wins. These teams are in the bottom half of the league and just aren't as good as the seeds 11-16 that make it into the NHL playoffs.
I don't have anything more insightful to say. I just like providing the numbers for other people to look at.
Thank you for the numbers, they really help clear things up a lot. I'm not sure how your conclusion from them can be that it is only about the 11-16 seeds though, when these tables show so clearly, in my opinion, that the SHL is a lot more top-heavy than the NHL.
In the NHL you have that whole #7-#16 tier which has managed to do a lot, like 46% of cup wins and an additional 8 finals appearances over 15 seasons. Going by these numbers, roughly 50% of the teams that show up in the finals are from the lower-60% of playoff seeds.
Since the SHL is a bit smaller, you could probably translate that to around the #6 to #13 tier or so. Who combine for just 7% of cup wins and a measly 3 additional finals appearances. Only 13% of the teams that show up in the finals are from that lower group of seeds. That's soooo much less than both in real life and what we had before the engine change.
Caveat: The numbers do change a lot depending on whether you include #5 as well or not, since the cut-off between competitive and not very competitive seemed to have been between #5 and #6 in recent years, with the #5 seed having top-caliber numbers and the #6 seed having midfield numbers.
In contrast, if you look at the top, 33% of cup wins in the NHL come from the top-3 teams, while in the SHL it's 80%. 26% of all finals appearances in the NHL are top-3 teams, whereas in the SHL it's 56%.
You really can't argue that this lack of parity doesn't exist. You can argue that it is not a problem for one reason or another, or that enough steps have been taken recently for this problem to work itself out over the next couple of seasons, that's fair, but it is there and shows itself in all metrics. And yes, the NHL shouldn't be the be all and end all for our comparisons, that's a fair point and not realistic. But if the difference is so stark and such a departure from how the league used to be for much of its existence, it is worth discussing. Because it means that a large portion of our player base is fighting over scraps, even if they are super-engaged, max earning and so on.
And it's really interesting to hear peoples different thoughts and the Mock Draft and the TPE-tasks in general, so please keep those coming! Don't want this to be another parity-thread, it's my fault for dragging us back to that topic again and again just because it's a personal pet peeve of mine.
05-19-2023, 06:59 AMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote: Thank you for the numbers, they really help clear things up a lot. I'm not sure how your conclusion from them can be that it is only about the 11-16 seeds though, when these tables show so clearly, in my opinion, that the SHL is a lot more top-heavy than the NHL.
In the NHL you have that whole #7-#16 tier which has managed to do a lot, like 46% of cup wins and an additional 8 finals appearances over 15 seasons. Going by these numbers, roughly 50% of the teams that show up in the finals are from the lower-60% of playoff seeds.
Since the SHL is a bit smaller, you could probably translate that to around the #6 to #13 tier or so. Who combine for just 7% of cup wins and a measly 3 additional finals appearances. Only 13% of the teams that show up in the finals are from that lower group of seeds. That's soooo much less than both in real life and what we had before the engine change.
Caveat: The numbers do change a lot depending on whether you include #5 as well or not, since the cut-off between competitive and not very competitive seemed to have been between #5 and #6 in recent years, with the #5 seed having top-caliber numbers and the #6 seed having midfield numbers.
In contrast, if you look at the top, 33% of cup wins in the NHL come from the top-3 teams, while in the SHL it's 80%. 26% of all finals appearances in the NHL are top-3 teams, whereas in the SHL it's 56%.
You really can't argue that this lack of parity doesn't exist. You can argue that it is not a problem for one reason or another, or that enough steps have been taken recently for this problem to work itself out over the next couple of seasons, that's fair, but it is there and shows itself in all metrics. And yes, the NHL shouldn't be the be all and end all for our comparisons, that's a fair point and not realistic. But if the difference is so stark and such a departure from how the league used to be for much of its existence, it is worth discussing. Because it means that a large portion of our player base is fighting over scraps, even if they are super-engaged, max earning and so on.
I think a huge part of it that I don't think we can fix is: NHL teams have a financial incentive to do everything they can to avoid rebuilding. You do not sell as many tickets when you're obviously rebuilding, unless you're Toronto, Montreal or a few select others. We just don't have that, we only have players to convince to stick with the team through a rebuild, and not the fans who actually make an NHL team viable. That creates a cycle of teams that could maybe compete but probably not deciding to go through the rebuild, thus trading more immediate talent to the only teams that will buy it. Those teams get better, league gets more top-heavy, more teams decide to go through the rebuild to hopefully get to that top level of talent to win a Cup, rinse and repeat.
05-18-2023, 07:56 PMenigmatic Wrote: I don't know if I joined at just the right time but with my first player the league felt so engaging! Now there's barely anything happening making me want to visit the forum. We get draft and iihf double weeks, the occasional graphics tournament and not much else happening. It would be cool to have events to engage with our teammates or the rest of the community. I remember one time a PT was to be done as a team and although not a lot of people participated, it was a fun idea and I'd love to see things like that happening more often.
With that being said, I do enjoy the league or I wouldn't be here anymore.
We're really trying to work towards improving events and making them more dynamic and interesting, with at least one announcement change coming up, but the Events Team is struggling to just get by with keeping our current events up the way they are so it's very hard to also implement positive change.
05-19-2023, 09:29 AMJURT Wrote: We're really trying to work towards improving events and making them more dynamic and interesting, with at least one announcement change coming up, but the Events Team is struggling to just get by with keeping our current events up the way they are so it's very hard to also implement positive change.
Au secours.
Yeah, I get it. It's easy to have ideas but it's probably more complicated to implement them.
05-19-2023, 09:57 AM(This post was last modified: 05-19-2023, 09:57 AM by Ruggsy. Edited 1 time in total.)
05-18-2023, 07:56 PMenigmatic Wrote: I don't know if I joined at just the right time but with my first player the league felt so engaging! Now there's barely anything happening making me want to visit the forum. We get draft and iihf double weeks, the occasional graphics tournament and not much else happening. It would be cool to have events to engage with our teammates or the rest of the community. I remember one time a PT was to be done as a team and although not a lot of people participated, it was a fun idea and I'd love to see things like that happening more often.
With that being said, I do enjoy the league or I wouldn't be here anymore.
We can't get people to join the tournaments anymore. To a point where I'll heavily suggest to people that they will place if they submit ANYTHING that meets the guidelines and still be lucky if we get enough people to fill the placement slots.
So I agree but I think it's deeper then just 'more events'
05-19-2023, 10:57 AM(This post was last modified: 05-19-2023, 10:57 AM by WannabeFinn.)
I think we’re always open to making adjustments to make things fun. But it’s a give and take. When it comes to enjoyment in this league, a big part of that equation is what you put in to the league. How you do your PT’s, how you build your player, how you engage the league with original content and holding jobs.
Of course writing 150 words of slop and mailing it in isn’t fun. Of course waiting around for weeks during the offseason isn’t fun. If that’s what you want to do because that’s all you have to do to maintain your player and you want to derive all of your enjoyment from the sim and your player success that’s fine. But there’s a certain degree of effort required on behalf of the user to participate in the league in a way that makes it fun for themselves. Nobody can define what makes the league fun for X, Y, or Z user. Only the individual can.
Personally? I’m having fun. I wouldn’t be here 9 years later if I wasn’t. And I must have a weird sense of fun because this is a legitimate unpaid job that I’ve taken on. But I’m here because I’m having fun and I want everyone else to have fun. I’m not doing it for my health, that’s for sure.
05-19-2023, 06:59 AMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote: Thank you for the numbers, they really help clear things up a lot. I'm not sure how your conclusion from them can be that it is only about the 11-16 seeds though, when these tables show so clearly, in my opinion, that the SHL is a lot more top-heavy than the NHL.
In the NHL you have that whole #7-#16 tier which has managed to do a lot, like 46% of cup wins and an additional 8 finals appearances over 15 seasons. Going by these numbers, roughly 50% of the teams that show up in the finals are from the lower-60% of playoff seeds.
Since the SHL is a bit smaller, you could probably translate that to around the #6 to #13 tier or so. Who combine for just 7% of cup wins and a measly 3 additional finals appearances. Only 13% of the teams that show up in the finals are from that lower group of seeds. That's soooo much less than both in real life and what we had before the engine change.
Caveat: The numbers do change a lot depending on whether you include #5 as well or not, since the cut-off between competitive and not very competitive seemed to have been between #5 and #6 in recent years, with the #5 seed having top-caliber numbers and the #6 seed having midfield numbers.
In contrast, if you look at the top, 33% of cup wins in the NHL come from the top-3 teams, while in the SHL it's 80%. 26% of all finals appearances in the NHL are top-3 teams, whereas in the SHL it's 56%.
You really can't argue that this lack of parity doesn't exist. You can argue that it is not a problem for one reason or another, or that enough steps have been taken recently for this problem to work itself out over the next couple of seasons, that's fair, but it is there and shows itself in all metrics. And yes, the NHL shouldn't be the be all and end all for our comparisons, that's a fair point and not realistic. But if the difference is so stark and such a departure from how the league used to be for much of its existence, it is worth discussing. Because it means that a large portion of our player base is fighting over scraps, even if they are super-engaged, max earning and so on.
I appreciate your well thought out response. This kind of discussion is exactly what we need to get on the same page in terms of how much the lack of parity is an issue versus a result of the nature of the league.
My comment about seeds 11-16 was only meant to show how it's not really fair to compare the playoff structures of both leagues one-to-one since the halfway point of our 20 team league is 10 teams. In the NHL, any team in the bottom half isn't given a chance at playoffs at all, so if our goal is to balance the playoffs to look more like the NHL, we're facing an uphill battle if we want the numbers in rows 11-16 to be anything higher than 0. I think our realistic goal should be to get the numbers for the top 10 SHL teams looking like the numbers for the top 16 NHL teams where any success found by our 11-16 seeds is purely a bonus.
When you look at the success of teams 7-16 in the NHL and translate that to seeds in the SHL, the exact numbers say that's the 5-10 range for us, not 6-13. Looking at cup final appearances with this split gives us 18 appearances for teams 1-4 and 11 appearances for teams 5-10, with a bonus 1 appearance for seed 11. Like you pointed out though, the 5th seed for us has had a lot of success so this split still doesn't say great things about 6-10. I'm not going to pretend like the SHL is in a perfect state here, but I think if we look at the seeds as they directly relate to the NHL, it's not so bad. Groups of seeds 1-6, 7-16, 16-32 in the NHL translate to 1-4, 5-10, 11-20 in the SHL. I'd say if our 1st seed won less cups and instead distributed those wins among the 6-10 seeds we'd be in a very acceptable spot. Obviously taking from the top and giving to the bottom isn't easy, but we're only looking at a sample size of 15 seasons. We could be having very different discussions if the randomness of it all swayed a different way for a few seasons. HO is always taking steps to improve the league and at a certain point I think we just have to be patient.
Another topic that I want to quickly reply to is how you mention that the SHL of today is much different than how it used to be. I've only been around for the FHM era so I didn't get to experience the randomness of STHS. Anyone who's been here 3 years or less has only ever seen FHM, so the standards for what we see in the playoffs aren't the same as the standards of someone who's been around a long time. For me and probably many other users with less than 3 years here, we've just grown into the league and come to expect a top-heavy playoff result. Could it always be better? Yes. Have I, and many others, still had a good time here despite the imperfections? Also yes.
Also, mock drafts are just fine imo. I'd say the J one probably isn't ideal for new users but otherwise it's a fun task.
05-19-2023, 09:57 AMRuggsy Wrote: We can't get people to join the tournaments anymore. To a point where I'll heavily suggest to people that they will place if they submit ANYTHING that meets the guidelines and still be lucky if we get enough people to fill the placement slots.
So I agree but I think it's deeper then just 'more events'
100% agree. Everyone wants to be more engaged but when there are things to engage them, and put effort into, they don’t.
Like for double media there was a bunch of mid season double media or media week stuff trying to get rolled out but only a couple if not any actually did it
Carpy did the graphics school in order to introduce people to graphics, which is great but after the first season it kinda died out
Graphics contents like you said only had like 4 or 5 people do them.
IIHF has been struggling for a while
I think lespolis is still looking for people to help with events for like 5 seasons now.
It’s gotten to the point of like, there are about 350-375 people on the site. There is enough dedicated people to keep it running, but they get stretched thin, and can’t do all the extra stuff.
Maybe it’s a way we have to rethink events or ways to bring the community together idk. But people have tried events or tried to do contests, but the second you have to put in a bit of effort the number of participants drop off significantly
05-19-2023, 11:07 AMluke Wrote: 100% agree. Everyone wants to be more engaged but when there are things to engage them, and put effort into, they don’t.
Like for double media there was a bunch of mid season double media or media week stuff trying to get rolled out but only a couple if not any actually did it
Carpy did the graphics school in order to introduce people to graphics, which is great but after the first season it kinda died out
Graphics contents like you said only had like 4 or 5 people do them.
IIHF has been struggling for a while
I think lespolis is still looking for people to help with events for like 5 seasons now.
It’s gotten to the point of like, there are about 350-375 people on the site. There is enough dedicated people to keep it running, but they get stretched thin, and can’t do all the extra stuff.
Maybe it’s a way we have to rethink events or ways to bring the community together idk. But people have tried events or tried to do contests, but the second you have to put in a bit of effort the number of participants drop off significantly
I just dont think very many people enjoy writing or creating graphics. Or reading for that matter. I mean, we're not an art creation league, we're a sim league. Shouldn't be a surprise that folks find it more demanding than fun to join a tournament, write double media, do graphics school, or what have you. If we want people to enjoy the effort part of the league, we should try making the requirement something fun. Else we should accept it as a necessary burden that gives meaning to the sim. Presenting the burden in different contexts is never going to make it not a burden.
05-19-2023, 09:57 AMRuggsy Wrote: We can't get people to join the tournaments anymore. To a point where I'll heavily suggest to people that they will place if they submit ANYTHING that meets the guidelines and still be lucky if we get enough people to fill the placement slots.
So I agree but I think it's deeper then just 'more events'
It wasn't a dig at the graphics tournament or the events we currently have going on. The IIHF and draft bonuses actually encourage me to get off my ass and do something. I'm just saying the league feels less engaging now than when I joined.
As I said, I'm sure everyone has ideas of events they'd like to see happen but when you're actually behind the scenes and have to make it work, it's a different story.
05-18-2023, 07:56 PMenigmatic Wrote: I don't know if I joined at just the right time but with my first player the league felt so engaging! Now there's barely anything happening making me want to visit the forum. We get draft and iihf double weeks, the occasional graphics tournament and not much else happening. It would be cool to have events to engage with our teammates or the rest of the community. I remember one time a PT was to be done as a team and although not a lot of people participated, it was a fun idea and I'd love to see things like that happening more often.
With that being said, I do enjoy the league or I wouldn't be here anymore.
Back before the discord days, when if you didnt check the site for a day or two you would miss 5+ pages in the WKP seasonal thread.
05-19-2023, 11:53 AMOhtaay Wrote: Back before the discord days, when if you didnt check the site for a day or two you would miss 5+ pages in the WKP seasonal thread.
I miss those days. But ultimately that’s like 100 messages in Discord? Instant chat platforms changed the game.
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