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***sköldpaddor*** · 01-31-2024, 10:34 AM

01-31-2024, 10:29 AMNUCK Wrote: No and your right, sorry I did answer that in my response to 7. Hate has no place and it's best that way. Thats not going to make anything good or better. But the prespective I am seeing is that it's also not ok to not be on the " Pride jersey ? bandwagon. Why cant people just be people and not make it about us vs them, straight vs queer, cats vs dogs. It dosnt help anyone when you wont allow someone whos not pro pride into your circle.

As a point of info, if you are not a member of the LGBTQ community, "queer' is not your word to reclaim. It's best not to use that unless you actually identify as that or are speaking to people you know are cool with it.

However. I am trying to create a locker room where LGBTQ+ people feel welcome and safe. I cannot do that if i knowingly welcome in people who think those people are "shoving it down people's throats" just by identifying themselves in public. You may not have thought much of that answer, but as a queer woman in sports, I can tell you that I've heard the "I don't have anything against it I just don't want to have to look at it" nonsense more times than I can count. I don't want a locker room where my LGBTQ+ players feel like they're "fine" if they just don't talk about who they are, I want one where they can feel safe to be loud and proud about it without someone complaining about having to see it.

NUCK · 01-31-2024, 10:54 AM

01-31-2024, 10:34 AMsköldpaddor Wrote: As a point of info, if you are not a member of the LGBTQ community, "queer' is not your word to reclaim. It's best not to use that unless you actually identify as that or are speaking to people you know are cool with it.

However. I am trying to create a locker room where LGBTQ+ people feel welcome and safe. I cannot do that if i knowingly welcome in people who think those people are "shoving it down people's throats" just by identifying themselves in public. You may not have thought much of that answer, but as a queer woman in sports, I can tell you that I've heard the "I don't have anything against it I just don't want to have to look at it" nonsense more times than I can count. I don't want a locker room where my LGBTQ+ players feel like they're "fine" if they just don't talk about who they are, I want one where they can feel safe to be loud and proud about it without someone complaining about having to see it.

I think I have said all I am going to say, you obviously dont get the point I am trying to make. That or your just going to argue for the fact of arguing. If you want to keep going we can take it to PM's but it's clear to see that me trying to point out a perception publicly is not doing anything productive.

@ec06aaj what does " cis " mean?

steveoiscool · 01-31-2024, 10:58 AM

Feels like I just walked back into the early 2000s here. No one's existence should be "fine".

***boom*** · 01-31-2024, 11:01 AM

01-31-2024, 10:54 AMNUCK Wrote: I think I have said all I am going to say, you obviously dont get the point I am trying to make. That or your just going to argue for the fact of arguing. If you want to keep going we can take it to PM's but it's clear to see that me trying to point out a perception publicly is not doing anything productive.

@ec06aaj what does " cis " mean?

Cis = someone whose gender identity jives with what the doctor said their assigned sex was based on their bits at birth.

And you weren’t here for this, but after last IRL winter when a team used a pick on a user with serious and known red flags and it blew up in their face almost immediately GMs look a lot more closely at those kinds of things now.

ec06aaj · 01-31-2024, 11:18 AM

01-31-2024, 10:54 AMNUCK Wrote: I think I have said all I am going to say, you obviously dont get the point I am trying to make. That or your just going to argue for the fact of arguing. If you want to keep going we can take it to PM's but it's clear to see that me trying to point out a perception publicly is not doing anything productive.

@ec06aaj what does " cis " mean?

The point you're trying to make is that somebody in a position of power, like skoldpaddor, should not be discriminating against somebody on the grounds of their views while also professing to want a tolerant environment. It was referenced above but I encourage you to look up Karl Popper and the paradox of tolerance. The user behind Nathan Abel could not reasonably be called tolerant of the LGBTQ+ community with the views that he came out with.

NUCK · 01-31-2024, 11:37 AM

01-31-2024, 11:18 AMec06aaj Wrote: The point you're trying to make is that somebody in a position of power, like skoldpaddor, should not be discriminating against somebody on the grounds of their views while also professing to want a tolerant environment. It was referenced above but I encourage you to look up Karl Popper and the paradox of tolerance. The user behind Nathan Abel could not reasonably be called tolerant of the LGBTQ+ community with the views that he came out with.

Yes that is the jist of it. I would prefer to see nobody be doing it but it comes off worse when there is power involved.

ec06aaj · 01-31-2024, 11:42 AM

01-31-2024, 11:37 AMNUCK Wrote: Yes that is the jist of it. I would prefer to see nobody be doing it but it comes off worse when there is power involved.

I repeat that you should go and read about the paradox of tolerance but, to bring it down to the most basic level, why would I as a pansexual man feel comfortable in the SHL or in a locker room with that user knowing his views on Pride being shoved down everybody's throats? Should I be forced to be tolerant to somebody who is not tolerant?

NUCK · 01-31-2024, 12:01 PM

01-31-2024, 11:42 AMec06aaj Wrote: I repeat that you should go and read about the paradox of tolerance but, to bring it down to the most basic level, why would I as a pansexual man feel comfortable in the SHL or in a locker room with that user knowing his views on Pride being shoved down everybody's throats?

They have an opinion from their own prospective, they are allowed that. I wont pretend to know their reasoning for their own feelings. Life is about compromising with those around us. By excluding someone for their views, you in turn are being part of the problem. Of course we are not referring to ignorance and hate but to common human decency. 2 people can be part of the same activity, LR, team ect. while not sharing the same views without hate or animosity being involved. Its called getting along and being mature. People of all walks of life do it everyday in all sorts of situations and it works out just fine. If and or when that cant occur, thats when the issue becomes a problem. I dont see a problem with LGBTQ+ PEOPLE being in the same chat as straight PEOPLE as long as everyone can be civil and compassionate to one another. Why does it need to feel like a we vs them mentality?

And no I wont read that book just because I dont read much but I would be open to listening to it on some sort of Audible or other program just to have the knowledge.

ec06aaj · 01-31-2024, 12:10 PM

The paradox of tolerance is not a book. Literally Googling it gives you the most salient part of it: "The paradox of tolerance states that if a society's practice of tolerance is inclusive of the intolerant, intolerance will ultimately dominate, eliminating the tolerant and the practice of tolerance with them."

Quote:By excluding someone for their views, you in turn are being part of the problem.

And when those views are that Pride is being shoved down everybody's throats and the way to normalise our existence is to be quiet, I'm fine being part of the problem. Done with this.

***boom*** · 01-31-2024, 12:17 PM

My dude just put down the shovel

***Reno*** · 01-31-2024, 12:21 PM

No one is "shoving it down your throat." Get that narrative out of here.

You complained about those in positions of power not wanting to draft based on personal beliefs and similar, but use logic for a second. If everyone on my team supports something like Pride, why on earth would I entertain the idea of bringing in someone who disagrees with something that important?

If you didn't get drafted as highly because of a trivial opinion that's one thing, but when you view something major like us LGBTQ+ just trying to be accepted and supported, people will notice and you'll fall accordingly.

***sköldpaddor*** · 01-31-2024, 12:23 PM

01-31-2024, 12:01 PMNUCK Wrote: They have an opinion from their own prospective, they are allowed that. I wont pretend to know their reasoning for their own feelings. Life is about compromising with those around us. By excluding someone for their views, you in turn are being part of the problem. Of course we are not referring to ignorance and hate but to common human decency. 2 people can be part of the same activity, LR, team ect. while not sharing the same views without hate or animosity being involved. Its called getting along and being mature. People of all walks of life do it everyday in all sorts of situations and it works out just fine. If and or when that cant occur, thats when the issue becomes a problem. I dont see a problem with LGBTQ+ PEOPLE being in the same chat as straight PEOPLE as long as everyone can be civil and compassionate to one another. Why does it need to feel like a we vs them mentality?

And no I wont read that book just because I dont read much but I would be open to listening to it on some sort of Audible or other program just to have the knowledge.

I can assure you no one is saying straight people can’t coexist with LGBTQ+ people. For one, I’m married to a straight man, so this would be a real awkward home I live in if I was trying to exclude straight people. (I’m also pretty sure my co-GM is a straight man too).

The point is exactly what you said. Everything is fine as long as people are civil and compassionate to one another. Referring to queer visibility as “shoving it down my throat” isn’t civil and compassionate. It isn’t an us vs them mentality until someone hateful makes it that way. This should never have been a political issue to begin with, and wouldn’t be if people hadn’t made it illegal to be gay, if we weren’t having to fight for our rights regularly. In a perfect world, we wouldn’t need Pride, because being queer would have been accepted from day one. But it wasn’t, and we still live in a world where that’s something we have to fight for.

***SDCore*** · 01-31-2024, 12:24 PM

Jess stop shoving your queer agenda down my straight cis white male throat.

***SDCore*** · 01-31-2024, 12:25 PM

01-31-2024, 12:21 PMReno Wrote: No one is "shoving it down your throat." Get that narrative out of here.

You complained about those in positions of power not wanting to draft based on personal beliefs and similar, but use logic for a second. If everyone on my team supports something like Pride, why on earth would I entertain the idea of bringing in someone who disagrees with something that important?

If you didn't get drafted as highly because of a trivial opinion that's one thing, but when you view something major like us LGBTQ+ just trying to be accepted and supported, people will notice and you'll fall accordingly.

Reno FTW

***SDCore*** · 01-31-2024, 12:30 PM

01-31-2024, 12:23 PMsköldpaddor Wrote: I can assure you no one is saying straight people can’t coexist with LGBTQ+ people. For one, I’m married to a straight man, so this would be a real awkward home I live in if I was trying to exclude straight people. (I’m also pretty sure my co-GM is a straight man too).

The point is exactly what you said. Everything is fine as long as people are civil and compassionate to one another. Referring to queer visibility as “shoving it down my throat” isn’t civil and compassionate. It isn’t an us vs them mentality until someone hateful makes it that way. This should never have been a political issue to begin with, and wouldn’t be if people hadn’t made it illegal to be gay, if we weren’t having to fight for our rights regularly. In a perfect world, we wouldn’t need Pride, because being queer would have been accepted from day one. But it wasn’t, and we still live in a world where that’s something we have to fight for.

Wait we aren't supposed to co-exist? shit I guess i need to find a new best friend. Any straight people hiring best friends out there?

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