11-27-2019, 12:50 PMGrapehead Wrote: I'd say the majority of teams will have someone familiar with FHM, and it's my plan to just include them in our conversations in the early stages to help get the overall management group up to speed. I personally don't know much of FHM, but I know I can find help with that internally. Some GMs might need some extra help, but plenty of us knew nothing of STHS before the SHL anyway.
I don't have the sims off hand but there's been a big group of members testing on both STHS and FHM, the hope is for a way forward under either system, it's just a matter of figuring out which one will work better for the majority of the league. Some people are excited about change and want to hype it up, but please just give everyone some time to finish creating the index, test simming, building out saves in FHM, and determining which attributes make sense to allow someone to increase and which ones need to be locked down before people pass judgement on FHM.
Regarding STHS, the "solutions" that have been proposed so far involve locking out either passing on the STHS 1.5 engine or skating on the 2.1 engine, then severely restricting builds so that users can't make use of the known exploits. I say solutions in quotes because no one is actually claiming these to be a real solution, they are a band-aid for a system that was built on decision makers being part of the attributes and that is really the root of this problem. Everyone testing these solutions don't think it's a fix, they expect they could slow the issue by pushing all players into specific builds. The only fixes that come close at this point will kill any build diversity that we had in STHS and force players into 3 player types, all of which would be stuck on almost identical builds.
FHM is not without it's own complications, and by no means does anyone involved in testing take moving sim engines lightly, but there is cause for some hopeful optimism because so far we are seeing a system that has some major benefits to the players in this league, the biggest benefit is that users can build the style of player they want to rather than being very limited. There is a lot of work left to be done before properly presenting the FHM option, and the intent is to take as much time as needed to have a proper solution that has been fully tested and the pros/cons are understood. If I have my way we will be presenting this to the entire league and eliciting feedback.
I can try to answer some of the other questions about FHM, but I think it might be easiest just to show everyone when we have it ready enough to show, which hopefully won't be too long. When it's a bit further along I will record a video walking everyone through the sim and how we believe it can be used for the SHL.
What makes this work is that to be really good offensively you'll need to have a ton of high offensive stats. The update scale will limit your ability to improve everything like we have it currently where everything is capped around 1500. No grinder is ever going to matchup to a player like Ovechkin just like in real life, but also like in real life putting a grinder out against the SHL's version of an offensive player will be better than pitting sniper vs sniper.
I'm asking about stats, not attributes.
I am looking for what the output is that will motivate defensive builds or grinding builds.
11-27-2019, 01:05 PMDrunkenTeddy Wrote: I don't have the sims off hand but there's been a big group of members testing on both STHS and FHM, the hope is for a way forward under either system, it's just a matter of figuring out which one will work better for the majority of the league. Some people are excited about change and want to hype it up, but please just give everyone some time to finish creating the index, test simming, building out saves in FHM, and determining which attributes make sense to allow someone to increase and which ones need to be locked down before people pass judgement on FHM.
Regarding STHS, the "solutions" that have been proposed so far involve locking out either passing on the STHS 1.5 engine or skating on the 2.1 engine, then severely restricting builds so that users can't make use of the known exploits. I say solutions in quotes because no one is actually claiming these to be a real solution, they are a band-aid for a system that was built on decision makers being part of the attributes and that is really the root of this problem. Everyone testing these solutions don't think it's a fix, they expect they could slow the issue by pushing all players into specific builds. The only fixes that come close at this point will kill any build diversity that we had in STHS and force players into 3 player types, all of which would be stuck on almost identical builds.
FHM is not without it's own complications, and by no means does anyone involved in testing take moving sim engines lightly, but there is cause for some hopeful optimism because so far we are seeing a system that has some major benefits to the players in this league, the biggest benefit is that users can build the style of player they want to rather than being very limited. There is a lot of work left to be done before properly presenting the FHM option, and the intent is to take as much time as needed to have a proper solution that has been fully tested and the pros/cons are understood. If I have my way we will be presenting this to the entire league and eliciting feedback.
I can try to answer some of the other questions about FHM, but I think it might be easiest just to show everyone when we have it ready enough to show, which hopefully won't be too long. When it's a bit further along I will record a video walking everyone through the sim and how we believe it can be used for the SHL.
Good stuff as always DT. Coming in as the voice of reason.
What makes this work is that to be really good offensively you'll need to have a ton of high offensive stats. The update scale will limit your ability to improve everything like we have it currently where everything is capped around 1500. No grinder is ever going to matchup to a player like Ovechkin just like in real life, but also like in real life putting a grinder out against the SHL's version of an offensive player will be better than pitting sniper vs sniper.
I'm asking about stats, not attributes.
I am looking for what the output is that will motivate defensive builds or grinding builds.
I'm not home right now so I can't show the stats FHM has available, but they are much more in depth than STHS has right now. Individual players' corsi/fenwick are tracked, shot blocks, hits, giveaways/takeaways, etc.
I brought it up over my time here ... yeah you lowered the TPE but maybe we need with the actually scale only a max of 1000 possible used TPE? maybe then this shitty problem would be solved? you want player types? then make the build templates harsher! You can also then reduce the regression and not so many would feel regressed to harsh!
like I said before ... I am not against a change but I want proven reasons and not only some arguments without real reasons against STHS. if you go with vision on this task you can always solve the problems! but then you must start now and you would need a formula for all created players that they arent over 1000 TPE and of course you must check up the TPE system of week training + AC + TTC + PTs ... but that is also possible!
you want just a playmaker? then bring up a playermaker build that wont hurt the member who created this player and also not the league file because of this bug! same with Sniper, Two Way Forward, Defensive Forward, Power Forward, Goon. then also some more Defender builds! maybe we should activate fatigue in STHS but I am now not sure if that is possible ... maybe this also could solve this bug problem. If I would have the time I had asked for this template file as this results about Passing/Scoring came out to the public.
All in all ... I am open for any option but it must be 100% clear and save!
and not only .... "I want something new" or "we need this change"
I DEMAND PROVEN FACTS THAT STHS IS HOPELESS WITH ANY SETTING
and FHM is the new HOPE with anything around it. the first things I saw are top but that is not enough with this risk!
Challenge Cup Wins:
S18 - Seattle Riot (with Chris McZehrl)*
S23 - New England Wolfpack (with Chris McZehrl)*
S27 - Calgary Dragons (with VLAD McZehrl)
S34 - Manhattan Rage (with VLAD McZehrl)
S37 - Winnipeg Jets (with VLAD McZehrl)
S46 - Buffalo Stampede (with GOD McZehrl)*
*first ever Challenge Cup of Franchise History
Four Star Cup Wins:
S24 - Vancouver Whalers (with VLAD McZehrl)
S39 - St. Louis Scarecrows (with GOD McZehrl)
11-27-2019, 02:27 PMChris-McZehrl Wrote: I brought it up over my time here ... yeah you lowered the TPE but maybe we need with the actually scale only a max of 1000 possible used TPE? maybe then this shitty problem would be solved? you want player types? then make the build templates harsher! You can also then reduce the regression and not so many would feel regressed to harsh!
like I said before ... I am not against a change but I want proven reasons and not only some arguments without real reasons against STHS. if you go with vision on this task you can always solve the problems! but then you must start now and you would need a formula for all created players that they arent over 1000 TPE and of course you must check up the TPE system of week training + AC + TTC + PTs ... but that is also possible!
you want just a playmaker? then bring up a playermaker build that wont hurt the member who created this player and also not the league file because of this bug! same with Sniper, Two Way Forward, Defensive Forward, Power Forward, Goon. then also some more Defender builds! maybe we should activate fatigue in STHS but I am now not sure if that is possible ... maybe this also could solve this bug problem. If I would have the time I had asked for this template file as this results about Passing/Scoring came out to the public.
All in all ... I am open for any option but it must be 100% clear and save!
and not only .... "I want something new" or "we need this change"
I DEMAND PROVEN FACTS THAT STHS IS HOPELESS WITH ANY SETTING
and FHM is the new HOPE with anything around it. the first things I saw are top but that is not enough with this risk!
McZ we aren't saying you can't make a playmaker in STHS, we're saying that empirically the best build is 99 SC, 99 PH, 99 DF, 90 EN and everything else at 40. The test sims have concluded that. As Tomen and DrunkenTeddy have said we're working on making STHS and FHM both viable options but it looks like STHS is not a long term possibility due to the brokenness of scoring and passing as it pertains to the decision making algorithm.
We're going to likely be changing the update scale either way, but there's no reason to change anything regarding media, PTs, contracts, etc.
@Tomen do you have any screenshots to show how busted this is? I can't find it but I saw one where someone took Chicago and only set SC to 99 and PA to 40 and they shredded the league.
11-27-2019, 02:27 PMChris-McZehrl Wrote: I brought it up over my time here ... yeah you lowered the TPE but maybe we need with the actually scale only a max of 1000 possible used TPE? maybe then this shitty problem would be solved? you want player types? then make the build templates harsher! You can also then reduce the regression and not so many would feel regressed to harsh!
like I said before ... I am not against a change but I want proven reasons and not only some arguments without real reasons against STHS. if you go with vision on this task you can always solve the problems! but then you must start now and you would need a formula for all created players that they arent over 1000 TPE and of course you must check up the TPE system of week training + AC + TTC + PTs ... but that is also possible!
you want just a playmaker? then bring up a playermaker build that wont hurt the member who created this player and also not the league file because of this bug! same with Sniper, Two Way Forward, Defensive Forward, Power Forward, Goon. then also some more Defender builds! maybe we should activate fatigue in STHS but I am now not sure if that is possible ... maybe this also could solve this bug problem. If I would have the time I had asked for this template file as this results about Passing/Scoring came out to the public.
All in all ... I am open for any option but it must be 100% clear and save!
and not only .... "I want something new" or "we need this change"
I DEMAND PROVEN FACTS THAT STHS IS HOPELESS WITH ANY SETTING
and FHM is the new HOPE with anything around it. the first things I saw are top but that is not enough with this risk!
Please show me a system that would allow for a pass first build that isn't inferior to a shoot first one in STHS.
Mathias Seger #15 | Player page | Update page Sigs by Donini, RainDelay, Fever and OrbitingDeath
11-27-2019, 02:27 PMChris-McZehrl Wrote: I brought it up over my time here ... yeah you lowered the TPE but maybe we need with the actually scale only a max of 1000 possible used TPE? maybe then this shitty problem would be solved? you want player types? then make the build templates harsher! You can also then reduce the regression and not so many would feel regressed to harsh!
like I said before ... I am not against a change but I want proven reasons and not only some arguments without real reasons against STHS. if you go with vision on this task you can always solve the problems! but then you must start now and you would need a formula for all created players that they arent over 1000 TPE and of course you must check up the TPE system of week training + AC + TTC + PTs ... but that is also possible!
you want just a playmaker? then bring up a playermaker build that wont hurt the member who created this player and also not the league file because of this bug! same with Sniper, Two Way Forward, Defensive Forward, Power Forward, Goon. then also some more Defender builds! maybe we should activate fatigue in STHS but I am now not sure if that is possible ... maybe this also could solve this bug problem. If I would have the time I had asked for this template file as this results about Passing/Scoring came out to the public.
All in all ... I am open for any option but it must be 100% clear and save!
and not only .... "I want something new" or "we need this change"
I DEMAND PROVEN FACTS THAT STHS IS HOPELESS WITH ANY SETTING
and FHM is the new HOPE with anything around it. the first things I saw are top but that is not enough with this risk!
McZ we aren't saying you can't make a playmaker in STHS, we're saying that empirically the best build is 99 SC, 99 PH, 99 DF, 90 EN and everything else at 40. The test sims have concluded that. As Tomen and DrunkenTeddy have said we're working on making STHS and FHM both viable options but it looks like STHS is not a long term possibility due to the brokenness of scoring and passing as it pertains to the decision making algorithm.
We're going to likely be changing the update scale either way, but there's no reason to change anything regarding media, PTs, contracts, etc.
@Tomen do you have any screenshots to show how busted this is? I can't find it but I saw one where someone took Chicago and only set SC to 99 and PA to 40 and they shredded the league.
show me the playmaker build with 1000 TPE in this from me created player build template:
Strengths: Passing, Attribute of Your Choice, Attribute of Your Choice (No Scoring)
Weakness: Choose one of Checking/Defense/Scoring
Note: Scoring cant be higher than 80
Player Attributes
Points Available: 155
CK = Checking: 40
FG = Fighting: 25
DI = Discipline: 62
SK = Skating: 40
ST = Strength: 40
EN = Endurance: 40
DU = Durability: 50 (do not add TPE here, injuries are turned off)
PH = Puck Handling: 40
FO = Face Offs: 40
PA = Passing: 40
SC = Scoring: 40
DF = Defense: 40
PS = Penalty Shot: 40
Challenge Cup Wins:
S18 - Seattle Riot (with Chris McZehrl)*
S23 - New England Wolfpack (with Chris McZehrl)*
S27 - Calgary Dragons (with VLAD McZehrl)
S34 - Manhattan Rage (with VLAD McZehrl)
S37 - Winnipeg Jets (with VLAD McZehrl)
S46 - Buffalo Stampede (with GOD McZehrl)*
*first ever Challenge Cup of Franchise History
Four Star Cup Wins:
S24 - Vancouver Whalers (with VLAD McZehrl)
S39 - St. Louis Scarecrows (with GOD McZehrl)
11-27-2019, 12:46 PMMayuu Wrote: So instead of using anecdotal evidence why dont you try it yourself. Add a team entirely made up of shoot first player, or half a team, or heck, even just one line where there's significant gap between scoring and passing in scorings favor and see how they stack up.
Then talk.
I do that every damn day in my own league and again you’re talking about absolute builds. Hell @Toivo knows that having two (or three) high SC and low PA players on the same line doesn’t break the sim or give him cups.
I have worked with STHS as a Simmer, Player Builder, and GM for over 7 years so yea I’ll talk all I want.
Honestly its not that passing is useless its more scoring builds are typically just better. Your league also uses 2.1 right? Skating is the "passing" equivalent of 1.5 in that sim engine. SO in 2.1 low skating, and high scoring will get you wins. Decision making formula is just bad programming
11-27-2019, 02:48 PMcaltroit_red_flames Wrote: McZ we aren't saying you can't make a playmaker in STHS, we're saying that empirically the best build is 99 SC, 99 PH, 99 DF, 90 EN and everything else at 40. The test sims have concluded that. As Tomen and DrunkenTeddy have said we're working on making STHS and FHM both viable options but it looks like STHS is not a long term possibility due to the brokenness of scoring and passing as it pertains to the decision making algorithm.
We're going to likely be changing the update scale either way, but there's no reason to change anything regarding media, PTs, contracts, etc.
@Tomen do you have any screenshots to show how busted this is? I can't find it but I saw one where someone took Chicago and only set SC to 99 and PA to 40 and they shredded the league.
show me the playmaker build with 1000 TPE in this from me created player build template:
Strengths: Passing, Attribute of Your Choice, Attribute of Your Choice (No Scoring)
Weakness: Choose one of Checking/Defense/Scoring
Note: Scoring cant be higher than 80
Player Attributes
Points Available: 155
CK = Checking: 40
FG = Fighting: 25
DI = Discipline: 62
SK = Skating: 40
ST = Strength: 40
EN = Endurance: 40
DU = Durability: 50 (do not add TPE here, injuries are turned off)
PH = Puck Handling: 40
FO = Face Offs: 40
PA = Passing: 40
SC = Scoring: 40
DF = Defense: 40
PS = Penalty Shot: 40
I don't really know what you're asking but if I were limited to making a playmaker this way it'd be this:
Strengths: Passing, Attribute of Your Choice, Attribute of Your Choice (No Scoring)
Weakness: Choose one of Checking/Defense/Scoring
Note: Scoring cant be higher than 80
Player Attributes
CK = Checking: 40
FG = Fighting: 25
DI = Discipline: 90
SK = Skating: 40
ST = Strength: 40
EN = Endurance: 90
DU = Durability: 50 (do not add TPE here, injuries are turned off)
PH = Puck Handling: 99
FO = Face Offs: 40
PA = Passing: 40
SC = Scoring: 80
DF = Defense: 99
PS = Penalty Shot: 81
11-27-2019, 02:59 PM(This post was last modified: 11-27-2019, 03:03 PM by DrunkenTeddy.)
11-27-2019, 02:53 PMChris-McZehrl Wrote:
11-27-2019, 02:48 PMcaltroit_red_flames Wrote: McZ we aren't saying you can't make a playmaker in STHS, we're saying that empirically the best build is 99 SC, 99 PH, 99 DF, 90 EN and everything else at 40. The test sims have concluded that. As Tomen and DrunkenTeddy have said we're working on making STHS and FHM both viable options but it looks like STHS is not a long term possibility due to the brokenness of scoring and passing as it pertains to the decision making algorithm.
We're going to likely be changing the update scale either way, but there's no reason to change anything regarding media, PTs, contracts, etc.
@Tomen do you have any screenshots to show how busted this is? I can't find it but I saw one where someone took Chicago and only set SC to 99 and PA to 40 and they shredded the league.
show me the playmaker build with 1000 TPE in this from me created player build template:
Strengths: Passing, Attribute of Your Choice, Attribute of Your Choice (No Scoring)
Weakness: Choose one of Checking/Defense/Scoring
Note: Scoring cant be higher than 80
Player Attributes
Points Available: 155
CK = Checking: 40
FG = Fighting: 25
DI = Discipline: 62
SK = Skating: 40
ST = Strength: 40
EN = Endurance: 40
DU = Durability: 50 (do not add TPE here, injuries are turned off)
PH = Puck Handling: 40
FO = Face Offs: 40
PA = Passing: 40
SC = Scoring: 40
DF = Defense: 40
PS = Penalty Shot: 40
Player Attributes
CK = Checking: 40
FG = Fighting: 25
DI = Discipline: 62
SK = Skating: 70
ST = Strength: 90
EN = Endurance: 90
DU = Durability: 50 (do not add TPE here, injuries are turned off)
PH = Puck Handling: 99
FO = Face Offs: 40
PA = Passing: 99
SC = Scoring: 40
DF = Defense: 99
PS = Penalty Shot: 40
This is one of the only viable playmaking builds on the current engine and it's no where near as good as 99 SC/40 PA
Passing is trash in sths 1.5 and nothing can fix that, in 2.1 passing is important because it makes your player better defensively, in fact, pass-first defensemen are as good (or almost as good) as shoot-first.
When it comes to forwards, snipers are better than playmakers, and the only way to make a playmaker build viable is to lock the third decision-making attribute (skating). So something like 60SK 99PA 80SC should work as well as 90SK 80PA 99SC.
Which obviously isn't a perfect solution.
2.1 also introduces some new problems, for example, if you put a playmaker on a line with 2 snipers then the playmaker might literally never score a goal; 3rd liners rarely get points; goalies are swiss cheese; etc
STHS is just a bad hockey simulator, switching to FHM would be good for the growth of the league
Grapehead
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