What I didn't like was GMs being able to run 50 test sims, and feeding their players the perfect season prediction template. Ruins the whole point of "predictions"
07-15-2022, 03:56 PMRotticusScott Wrote: FHM is not DDSFPFPSFPSPF or whatever its called.
Ooh, this feels quite personal, I'm here for it.
Quote:There is no automation of the sim
OK, that's just objectively wrong, but carry on.
Quote:there are infinitely more moving parts to the sim.
"Infinitely" is kinda strong, but I get what you are saying. Definitely lots of moving parts.
Quote:Sim results are shaky at best in the SHL due to the fact that individual seasons sim differently compared to mass sim testing.
I honestly don't know what you mean by this.
Quote:It is better to outlaw it, especially when many teams were hurting their results by constantly changing and testing different strategies. I'm sure any teams that are witch hunted will be backed up by their common gm's, as it seems GM chat has found a decent common ground on this issue of not sim testing at all.
Hmmm. The whole crux of what I was saying was "keep the league file hidden, but maybe let us play with the sim a bit so we know what attributes do". So maybe we agree on strat testing? I honestly can't tell.
If you somehow worked out an auto-clicker that doesn't fuck up when trying to sim games and get through prompts/misclicks you're my hero. From my experience when I was active in ISFL exhibition games produced wildly different outcomes compared to actual in-season simmed games, similar to SHL. I think SJS had a 13% and 20% chance to beat Colorado in the Ultimus through exhibition games, but when simmed in-season they were winning at a 40% clip over both ultimi (ultimises?). There have been similar examples in SHL with FHM6 simming full seasons team vs team and simming in-file games. Not personal on my DDPSF guesstimation, I just despise ISFL's sim for making my player terrible.
I feel like people greatly underrate the importance of sim testing to a certain point, and then greatly overrate it past that point. The baseline of testing to have at least a vague clue about what works and doesn't work is huge. A very good team could suck because a GM hoped for the best and picked a bad strat. Now that team is losing and it's barely even the GM's fault.
I am willing to bet all my league money in every league that there's already people out there testing. Not gonna lie I thought HO was memeing when I saw the announcement banning testing.
All you need to do this is to own FHM8 and have a bit of time to set up a league file with tons of different teams with the same strats/DCs and create a bunch of custom players with the builds you want to test. A bit more complex in practice than on paper, but you get the gist. HO would have no clue this was happening, and all a GM would need to do to get their players working towards the new meta is to give build advice... like every other GM would. Accused of testing because your team is too good? Pick a random excuse out of a hat- "I got lucky" "I just play a lot of FHM" "I saw it on the ootp forums" unless HO goes around banning people on minimal proof (which wouldn't surprise me), then you'd have to be pretty dumb to get caught.
If you want to yolo a build based on a concept or whatever, more power to you. I personally would be rather upset if I found out my player sucked because I had distributed my TPE into bad attributes because I (and everyone else) didn't know any better. Given, I have absolutely no FHM knowledge and infrequently watch hockey so I benefit from other's build testing/sim knowledge far greater than the average user here.
This feels rather like prohibition in America. The Government/HO gets lots of plaudits for broadly banning the big unpopular thing, but that doesn't really stop it.
Props to HO for actually doing the thing though, and I mean that genuinely. It takes big balls to take such a strong stance on anything major, and y'all sure as hell took a strong stance.
07-15-2022, 04:09 PMCrunk Wrote: Ooh, this feels quite personal, I'm here for it.
OK, that's just objectively wrong, but carry on.
"Infinitely" is kinda strong, but I get what you are saying. Definitely lots of moving parts.
I honestly don't know what you mean by this.
Hmmm. The whole crux of what I was saying was "keep the league file hidden, but maybe let us play with the sim a bit so we know what attributes do". So maybe we agree on strat testing? I honestly can't tell.
If you somehow worked out an auto-clicker that doesn't fuck up when trying to sim games and get through prompts/misclicks you're my hero. From my experience when I was active in ISFL exhibition games produced wildly different outcomes compared to actual in-season simmed games, similar to SHL. I think SJS had a 13% and 20% chance to beat Colorado in the Ultimus through exhibition games, but when simmed in-season they were winning at a 40% clip over both ultimi (ultimises?). There have been similar examples in SHL with FHM6 simming full seasons team vs team and simming in-file games. Not personal on my DDPSF guesstimation, I just despise ISFL's sim for making my player terrible.
I guess that makes me your hero then. It was 100% possible.
And yeah, DDSPF has always been janky as hell, that's where I learned to do my stuff. That jankiness is part of why I started off by saying FHM is relatively easy to sim. Less DDS bullshit to worry about.
07-15-2022, 05:07 PMzeagle1 Wrote: I feel like people greatly underrate the importance of sim testing to a certain point, and then greatly overrate it past that point. The baseline of testing to have at least a vague clue about what works and doesn't work is huge. A very good team could suck because a GM hoped for the best and picked a bad strat. Now that team is losing and it's barely even the GM's fault.
I am willing to bet all my league money in every league that there's already people out there testing. Not gonna lie I thought HO was memeing when I saw the announcement banning testing.
All you need to do this is to own FHM8 and have a bit of time to set up a league file with tons of different teams with the same strats/DCs and create a bunch of custom players with the builds you want to test. A bit more complex in practice than on paper, but you get the gist. HO would have no clue this was happening, and all a GM would need to do to get their players working towards the new meta is to give build advice... like every other GM would. Accused of testing because your team is too good? Pick a random excuse out of a hat- "I got lucky" "I just play a lot of FHM" "I saw it on the ootp forums" unless HO goes around banning people on minimal proof (which wouldn't surprise me), then you'd have to be pretty dumb to get caught.
If you want to yolo a build based on a concept or whatever, more power to you. I personally would be rather upset if I found out my player sucked because I had distributed my TPE into bad attributes because I (and everyone else) didn't know any better. Given, I have absolutely no FHM knowledge and infrequently watch hockey so I benefit from other's build testing/sim knowledge far greater than the average user here.
This feels rather like prohibition in America. The Government/HO gets lots of plaudits for broadly banning the big unpopular thing, but that doesn't really stop it.
Props to HO for actually doing the thing though, and I mean that genuinely. It takes big balls to take such a strong stance on anything major, and y'all sure as hell took a strong stance.
The problem with this sort of is, a partial ban is somehow even dumber than a complete one, because it's even less enforcable. Now, when you don't really get active access to the commish profile, you have to likely put in a decent chunk of work to redo your own file if you would want to test sim, but if they release it and then go "but only test sim a little", we are effectively back where we were. It's not the greatest of situations, but HO's options are somewhat limited on what they can truly attempt to actually limit, and going halfway between banning test simming and allowing it completely is probably the least likely option to work.
Mind you, these rules feel extremely similar to the tampering rules that seem to be fairly universally accepted as a thing, even though it has the exact same issue of being virtually unenforcable outside of actual insider leaks, that insider being one of the parties. The test simming does have an issue with how many people truly need to be in the know, limiting the ammount of whistleblowers, but in the end how many tampering charges has SHL seen in the past maybe 20 seasons, expecting that it's unlikely such activity has completely stopped existing.
Manhattan Rage | General Manager
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07-15-2022, 05:07 PMzeagle1 Wrote: I feel like people greatly underrate the importance of sim testing to a certain point, and then greatly overrate it past that point. The baseline of testing to have at least a vague clue about what works and doesn't work is huge. A very good team could suck because a GM hoped for the best and picked a bad strat. Now that team is losing and it's barely even the GM's fault.
I am willing to bet all my league money in every league that there's already people out there testing. Not gonna lie I thought HO was memeing when I saw the announcement banning testing.
All you need to do this is to own FHM8 and have a bit of time to set up a league file with tons of different teams with the same strats/DCs and create a bunch of custom players with the builds you want to test. A bit more complex in practice than on paper, but you get the gist. HO would have no clue this was happening, and all a GM would need to do to get their players working towards the new meta is to give build advice... like every other GM would. Accused of testing because your team is too good? Pick a random excuse out of a hat- "I got lucky" "I just play a lot of FHM" "I saw it on the ootp forums" unless HO goes around banning people on minimal proof (which wouldn't surprise me), then you'd have to be pretty dumb to get caught.
If you want to yolo a build based on a concept or whatever, more power to you. I personally would be rather upset if I found out my player sucked because I had distributed my TPE into bad attributes because I (and everyone else) didn't know any better. Given, I have absolutely no FHM knowledge and infrequently watch hockey so I benefit from other's build testing/sim knowledge far greater than the average user here.
This feels rather like prohibition in America. The Government/HO gets lots of plaudits for broadly banning the big unpopular thing, but that doesn't really stop it.
Props to HO for actually doing the thing though, and I mean that genuinely. It takes big balls to take such a strong stance on anything major, and y'all sure as hell took a strong stance.
The problem with this sort of is, a partial ban is somehow even dumber than a complete one, because it's even less enforcable. Now, when you don't really get active access to the commish profile, you have to likely put in a decent chunk of work to redo your own file if you would want to test sim, but if they release it and then go "but only test sim a little", we are effectively back where we were. It's not the greatest of situations, but HO's options are somewhat limited on what they can truly attempt to actually limit, and going halfway between banning test simming and allowing it completely is probably the least likely option to work.
Mind you, these rules feel extremely similar to the tampering rules that seem to be fairly universally accepted as a thing, even though it has the exact same issue of being virtually unenforcable outside of actual insider leaks, that insider being one of the parties. The test simming does have an issue with how many people truly need to be in the know, limiting the ammount of whistleblowers, but in the end how many tampering charges has SHL seen in the past maybe 20 seasons, expecting that it's unlikely such activity has completely stopped existing.
I feel like you may have missed the point in the original post.
My entire pitch here was: Keep the sim file secret if you like, but please let us play with the sim on other files.
07-15-2022, 06:41 PM(This post was last modified: 07-15-2022, 06:48 PM by Citizen of Adraa. Edited 2 times in total.)
07-15-2022, 06:39 PMCrunk Wrote:
07-15-2022, 06:30 PMCitizen of Adraa Wrote: The problem with this sort of is, a partial ban is somehow even dumber than a complete one, because it's even less enforcable. Now, when you don't really get active access to the commish profile, you have to likely put in a decent chunk of work to redo your own file if you would want to test sim, but if they release it and then go "but only test sim a little", we are effectively back where we were. It's not the greatest of situations, but HO's options are somewhat limited on what they can truly attempt to actually limit, and going halfway between banning test simming and allowing it completely is probably the least likely option to work.
Mind you, these rules feel extremely similar to the tampering rules that seem to be fairly universally accepted as a thing, even though it has the exact same issue of being virtually unenforcable outside of actual insider leaks, that insider being one of the parties. The test simming does have an issue with how many people truly need to be in the know, limiting the ammount of whistleblowers, but in the end how many tampering charges has SHL seen in the past maybe 20 seasons, expecting that it's unlikely such activity has completely stopped existing.
I feel like you may have missed the point in the original post.
My entire pitch here was: Keep the sim file secret if you like, but please let us play with the sim on other files.
Because at present, that's illegal.
You technically don't give a shit about the file. As a matter of fact, the file is freely available.
The thing you need to sim through a game is the commish password. I don't think you can play the SHL save without it, but the moment you get it, you are just straight back at test simming.
Edit: wait I am an idiot I actually can't read. We can't even play FHM 8? I didn't notice that in the rule
Edit 2: yeah, nothing in the wording of that rule says I can't play FHM 8 the game, I just can't try to create SHL/SMJHL and attempt to test sim on it if I understand it correctly
Manhattan Rage | General Manager
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07-15-2022, 06:39 PMCrunk Wrote: I feel like you may have missed the point in the original post.
My entire pitch here was: Keep the sim file secret if you like, but please let us play with the sim on other files.
Because at present, that's illegal.
You technically don't give a shit about the file. As a matter of fact, the file is freely available.
The thing you need to sim through a game is the commish password. I don't think you can play the SHL save without it, but the moment you get it, you are just straight back at test simming.
Edit: wait I am an idiot I actually can't read. We can't even play FHM 8? I didn't notice that in the rule
07-15-2022, 06:41 PMCitizen of Adraa Wrote: You technically don't give a shit about the file. As a matter of fact, the file is freely available.
The thing you need to sim through a game is the commish password. I don't think you can play the SHL save without it, but the moment you get it, you are just straight back at test simming.
Edit: wait I am an idiot I actually can't read. We can't even play FHM 8? I didn't notice that in the rule
We can play FHM 8.
We can't modify anything to explore FHM 8.
my reaction to that is basically, it seems to me that it's pushing a grey zone within the rule that I would not touch considering that being convicted effectively nukes you off of the forums. I don't think the wording explicitly bans like, data mining through the FHM source code (at least the wording that we have from the announcement, the official wording is yet to be in the rulebook), but it's close enough for me to feel like a bad mood might fire me into the SHL sun and I would really rather not risk that
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D | Great Falls Grizzlies | Player Page | Update Page
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