07-15-2022, 08:09 PMCrunk Wrote: The concept of a witch hunt is a baying mob demanding severe justice based on unprovable accusations. Teams that are known for sim testing being accused of sim testing in a league that allows sim testing isn't a witch hunt. It's a few snarky comments based on sound logic. I believe this ban has the potential to result in actual witch hunts, with real potential punishments.... if results fall a certain way.

You mean you foresee teams/people being punished for "test simming" without any hard evidence, just because the mob demands it? I have a hard time believing that and it would of course be absolutely wrong. And even if there weren't any punishments for it, I do still believe that we already have that right now when teams like HAM can't win a series without everyone suspecting some sort of foul play. If we'll able to get rid of that I don't know, but I doubt it can get any worse. I see the paranoia actually going down with this, not up.

Quote:You talk about players making "choices" and "decisions". Both words imply a level of knowledge surrounding the decision at hand, and a lack of sim knowledge in the community means that just isn't possible here. These are now guesses, or arbitrary decisions - is handing agency to the players to make consequential guesses really a satisfying user experience?

The options aren't just "players knowing nothing" and "players knowing everything", there is a biiiiiig middle ground here that we are looking to occupy. And it's absolutely possible to give players some guidelines and information on the attributes available without doing what we've been doing in recent years, which was brute force testing individual attributes into oblivion to determine the optional marginal gains for each attribute at each point of the scale to the point where everyone more or less feels compelled to build the same way.

Quote:Right, and this is where I think you have strayed from the point I was making slightly. I have done the sim testing grind (mostly in other leagues) and I am fine with it going. Take away the capability for us to sim through the league file, and ideally take away any possibility of us being able to recreate a league file. That can all go, along with any culture of obligatory test simming in the name of optimisation.

But without the capability to explore the sim engine even slightly (without any league file - or recreation thereof - involved) we are in a position where anyone who offers any build advice to others who request it are under immediate suspicion. Every keen rookie who wants to earn, get involved more, and try to make a player who succeeds in the league has to be met with "idk, just guess" when asking for advice. I don't think that will be healthy for the league in the long term.

I just don't think that's the case. People can still just play FHM regularly or even test stuff in there on the side as long as they don't use the SHL file, so there are still plenty of ways to play around with the engine and try to understand and learn it.

Also I don't see people coming under immediate suspicion for merely offering build advice. But I do admit that this is a tricky point, I for one think that it would be good for the league if there was a less build advice going around in general, fewer templates, fewer cases where GMs essentially create their players builds for them. It's a big part of what has been making the player building process boring despite theoretically having more options than ever.

But I also acknowledge that the players have an inherit desire to spend their TPE as efficiently as possible and to do everything they can to help their team, so this is not a case of GMs or the league forcing it on them, but many specifically seek it out on their own volition.

I'm not quite sure how to tackle that either, but I think one tool to combat that at least a little bit is less clarity about what is optimal and what isn't, If the GMs aren't sure what constitutes an ideal build then it'll become less likely that everyone around the league tells their players to build the same way.

07-15-2022, 10:51 PMspooked Wrote: The pure idea that you would want to decompile or identify what is/isn't the most profitable use of TPE or what is good/bad by definition is exactly the attitude that test sim banning was trying to remove. The whole spirit behind this post is the point of the ban in the first place.

Strongly agree with that.