04-13-2023, 03:28 PM(This post was last modified: 04-13-2023, 03:28 PM by Duff101. Edited 1 time in total.)
04-13-2023, 03:06 PMboom Wrote: idk i feel like just yeeting iihf would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater, people affected by this aren't asking for some major reckoning on geopolitics they just don't want to see the explicit imagery/iconography of a government that is hurting and killing their people right now, i think just saying "no one can have countries anymore" would be an overreaction
speaking from the point of view of being 8 seasons into a narrative, having to fictionalize everything to be in some fantasy country would have been a damper on benign elements of the story and make things really really complicated, and could put off new users who want to write about their player in a certain country.
@PremierBromanov you mentioned players wanting to create as more obscure nations, I can't speak for them but I know @eddiesnothere has done some pretty fantastic media with a Vietnamese player coming to North America. I think if users are going to make players from those countries we can let them figure out how to approach the stories and see where they go with it.
With only a representation of the top division in the real-world international hockey sphere without lower tiers, we're never going to be able to give every single country create a national team to play on and I think it's fine to leave that decision in the users' hands to adapt to being online.
EDIT TO ADD: not to mention the "vague geographical definitions" would probably lead to federations like Finland/Sweden/Denmark/Norway or Germany/Switzerland/France that become very oversized.
TBH I'm coming at this from a gameplay perspective, I think a "feeding frenzy" as feds compete to recruit people from the pool of new players would both be far more engaging and create a lot greater connection between people and their feds. Think about it more like college, where they compete for recruits every season. I think the current create system is bad both competitively and from a passion perspective because it makes it really easy as a player to not even realize IIHF is a thing when creating. New players create for a country and THEN get connected with their fed. This is of course excepting the transfer system, which I think is really cool and it's a thing I've always wanted to do that I've never been able to bc of how IIHF is, and I think a wider rollout of this cool system that really is totally different from the SHL structure would allow it to really shine.
04-13-2023, 03:06 PMboom Wrote: a government that is hurting and killing their people right now
this part just feels disingenuous to anyone who feels similarly about other countries. What is the statute of limitations here? Who is deciding what feelings are valid and for how long? Like, i run a country that is responsible for ~165,000,000 deaths in india in some 40 years. A country that was more appalled by the idea of executing Nazi officials than the deaths of millions of indians. When does that stop mattering? I get that we mostly service north american and european users, but these feelings are valid even for users who are not here yet. Are we going to draw a line in the sand and say we will only protect you if you are north american or european? Are we just going to wait to see who joins the league and hope they stick around long enough to voice their concerns?
and again, when does "right now" end? Are we bringing russia back after a set amount of time and tell the victims to blow it out their ass?
To me, either the countries are real and we remove them to address the concerns of any victim or potential victim, or they're not real and we keep it the same. Selective measures say a lot about what we think of the users we don't do anything for.
04-13-2023, 03:28 PMDuff101 Wrote: TBH I'm coming at this from a gameplay perspective, I think a "feeding frenzy" as feds compete to recruit people from the pool of new players would both be far more engaging and create a lot greater connection between people and their feds.
As a fed head, i can tell you we're not going to do that. The season is a week long and our biggest issue is that people don't care that much. We cant give us enough time without making SHL seasons last even longer.
04-13-2023, 03:49 PM(This post was last modified: 04-13-2023, 03:54 PM by Duff101. Edited 1 time in total.)
04-13-2023, 03:34 PMPremierBromanov Wrote: As a fed head, i can tell you we're not going to do that. The season is a week long and our biggest issue is that people don't care that much. We cant give us enough time without making SHL seasons last even longer.
I mean there's def an issue with timing but people don't care that much partly because the system doesn't really encourage caring that much. Think about it, when you go to the SHL or J you are generally courted by multiple teams and in the case of the J sometimes you even do a short trial run to get to know a team and build connections.
In the IIHF you are automatically assigned to a team based on what you put as your backstory. Unassigned players and people who transfer out young are obvious exceptions, but they are in the minority and I imagine a vast majority of people just go it is what it is and just sporadically check their stat sheets or LRs. I imagine recreates are also an exception to this, but are they really who the IIHF system should be for?
Also I do get it is a little rich proposing something that would make fed heads have a larger workload when I am no longer a head but I did have a similar opinion when I was a head.
04-13-2023, 03:49 PMDuff101 Wrote: I mean there's def an issue with timing but people don't care that much partly because the system doesn't really encourage caring that much. Think about it, when you go to the SHL or J you are generally courted by multiple teams and in the case of the J sometimes you even do a short trial run to get to know a team and build connections.
In the IIHF you are automatically assigned to a team based on what you put as your backstory. Unassigned players and people who transfer out young are obvious exceptions, but they are in the minority and I imagine a vast majority of people just go it is what it is and just sporadically check their stat sheets or LRs. I imagine recreates are also an exception to this, but are they really who the IIHF system should be for?
Also I do get it is a little rich proposing something that would make fed heads have a larger workload when I am no longer a head but I did have a similar opinion when I was a head.
again, there's just not enough time. Any logistical change we'd like to make for the IIHF is constrained by time (and labor). I want the IIHF to be bigger, but i'd need more time and no SHL user wants the seasons to last longer (and TPE inflates per season when there are more weeks in a season)
04-13-2023, 03:34 PMPremierBromanov Wrote: As a fed head, i can tell you we're not going to do that. The season is a week long and our biggest issue is that people don't care that much. We cant give us enough time without making SHL seasons last even longer.
Adding onto this just to say, many of us are able to do this job in the first place (regardless of how enthusiastic we are about it) because it is not a huge time commitment. Turning it into just a "who can recruit the most people" version of the SHL, I am almost certain, would immediately kill a lot of the interest and/or ability from current fed heads to do the job anymore (myself included). I am just wholly uninterested in participating in a space that's just "all the same social pods from the SHL but it's different now because we're calling it something different and everybody is a free agent instead of getting drafted."
To address points from several of your other posts - I don't think anybody in here is saying "we don't care about the people that all the other countries have hurt." What we're trying to address right now is that members of our community have come to us and told us that some of the imagery and branding here is actively causing them significant pain and distress due to the immediate, daily danger that imagery and branding represents to them and their loved ones.
If someone had stepped up and asked about any of these other nations before now, we would have taken that just as seriously, but the fact that no one brought any of it up until Darian and Yosuf asked about Russia indicates to me that people are only using those questions/criticisms as reasons why we shouldn't be doing anything about Russia.
If people genuinely want to have discussions about the ethics of placing teams in Canada or Florida etc, I'm fully open to that, but so far in this thread, all I have seen is people using this "all countries do shitty things!" as a reason to dismiss people in our community asking us to consider something that is deeply personally relevant to them on a daily basis.
We are not talking about making moral judgments about what is the "worst" country here, we are not trying to have some kind of ethics Olympics to decide whose country deserves to exist or not. We are talking about making a minor change because we are being told that the status quo is actively harmful to specific members of our community. And yes, we would make that consideration whether they were European or not, and no, I don't know what the "statute of limitations" is, but the point I think boom was trying to make is that these people have told us, that this is genuinely a detriment to their mental health and their ability to enjoy participating in a community they've been a part of for over a decade because of the way it represents the daily physical danger their family is in right now.
The fact that other people have been harmed by other countries is not an excuse to say "well, sorry guys, can't help you out here because of all the hypothetical people who might also be upset but haven't mentioned it yet."
04-13-2023, 03:56 PMPremierBromanov Wrote: again, there's just not enough time. Any logistical change we'd like to make for the IIHF is constrained by time (and labor). I want the IIHF to be bigger, but i'd need more time and no SHL user wants the seasons to last longer (and TPE inflates per season when there are more weeks in a season)
So if its just gonna permasuck why not replace it with something better?
04-13-2023, 04:04 PMsköldpaddor Wrote: Adding onto this just to say, many of us are able to do this job in the first place (regardless of how enthusiastic we are about it) because it is not a huge time commitment. Turning it into just a "who can recruit the most people" version of the SHL, I am almost certain, would immediately kill a lot of the interest and/or ability from current fed heads to do the job anymore (myself included). I am just wholly uninterested in participating in a space that's just "all the same social pods from the SHL but it's different now because we're calling it something different and everybody is a free agent instead of getting drafted."
To address points from several of your other posts - I don't think anybody in here is saying "we don't care about the people that all the other countries have hurt." What we're trying to address right now is that members of our community have come to us and told us that some of the imagery and branding here is actively causing them significant pain and distress due to the immediate, daily danger that imagery and branding represents to them and their loved ones.
If someone had stepped up and asked about any of these other nations before now, we would have taken that just as seriously, but the fact that no one brought any of it up until Darian and Yosuf asked about Russia indicates to me that people are only using those questions/criticisms as reasons why we shouldn't be doing anything about Russia.
If people genuinely want to have discussions about the ethics of placing teams in Canada or Florida etc, I'm fully open to that, but so far in this thread, all I have seen is people using this "all countries do shitty things!" as a reason to dismiss people in our community asking us to consider something that is deeply personally relevant to them on a daily basis.
We are not talking about making moral judgments about what is the "worst" country here, we are not trying to have some kind of ethics Olympics to decide whose country deserves to exist or not. We are talking about making a minor change because we are being told that the status quo is actively harmful to specific members of our community. And yes, we would make that consideration whether they were European or not, and no, I don't know what the "statute of limitations" is, but the point I think boom was trying to make is that these people have told us, that this is genuinely a detriment to their mental health and their ability to enjoy participating in a community they've been a part of for over a decade because of the way it represents the daily physical danger their family is in right now.
The fact that other people have been harmed by other countries is not an excuse to say "well, sorry guys, can't help you out here because of all the hypothetical people who might also be upset but haven't mentioned it yet."
I do think a lot of the discussion here has definitely been whataboutism or extrapolating issues I'm just not a huge fan of nationalism as a whole. That said, there's 0 reason not to change it besides the "what if we have to change stuff later" which can be addressed when that point actually arises from a concerned party.
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