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oknom · 12-03-2023, 11:53 AM

As someone who isnt a GM or part of the sim team, just curious if the main reasons for scaling back are to help sim team and also reduce sim errors? Coordinating steamers, times, goalie changes, etc all while dealing with FHM wonkiness and real life is a tough task that I dont think really shines through to us casuals. If this helps the sim team stay consistent and reduce errors, I think it's a good move.

I'll echo what a lot of others have said that I just want to watch my team. Playoffs are an exception. I also have to say that I dont ever really "see" my player in the live sim, unless it's on the goal notification. That's basically already the same as being surprised at seeing it in a box score. The joy of the live sim is experiencing the lead changes, and maybe shootouts too.

I think one thing everyone who desires commentated live sims needs to consider is working on their own skills at commentating. If that's what you want to see in the league, start a once a week podcast to hone those skills. The larger the roster of users willing to comment ate, the better the product and more likely we are to realize it. Plus that will give everyone a little something extra to engage with in place of a live sim. Also, money. It would be very cool to know different nights are when different podcasts would be released, like Sportscenter vs Hockey Night in Canada vs TNT

oknom · 12-03-2023, 11:57 AM

Whoops double posted on mobile my bad.

***PapaSorin*** · 12-03-2023, 11:57 AM

12-03-2023, 11:52 AMFluw Wrote: Like mentioned above streaming the sim prevents people from rigging the sim. Unfortunately, people can't be trusted to do the right thing. This is a temporary thing, live sims have been inconsistent, the amount of live sims has been inconsistent, new ice and goal horns weren't making it in for seasons for the live sim experience. So give the sim team a season to figure things out to improve the viewing experience. Playoffs are still live sims, which is what most people care about anyways when it comes to viewer count.

Rigging the sim? That actually happens? Sure, I take awards season seriously, but I wouldn't join awards team to give myself every award. It's a game, I feel bad for anyone who takes it that seriously.

*Fluw* · 12-03-2023, 11:59 AM

12-03-2023, 11:53 AMoknom Wrote: As someone who isnt a GM or part of the sim team, just curious if the main reasons for scaling back are to help sim team and also reduce sim errors? Coordinating steamers, times, goalie changes, etc all while dealing with FHM wonkiness and real life is a tough task that I dont think really shines through to us casuals. If this helps the sim team stay consistent and reduce errors, I think it's a good move.

I'll echo what a lot of others have said that I just want to watch my team. Playoffs are an exception. I also have to say that I dont ever really "see" my player in the live sim, unless it's on the goal notification. That's basically already the same as being surprised at seeing it in a box score. The joy of the live sim is experiencing the lead changes, and maybe shootouts too.

I think one thing everyone who desires commentated live sims needs to consider is working on their own skills at commentating. If that's what you want to see in the league, start a once a week podcast to hone those skills. The larger the roster of users willing to comment ate, the better the product and more likely we are to realize it. Plus that will give everyone a little something extra to engage with in place of a live sim. Also, money. It would be very cool to know different nights are when different podcasts would be released, like Sportscenter vs Hockey Night in Canada vs TNT

From my understanding it is exactly that, to fix/standardize the simming process to reduce the number of errors and inconsistencies that have been occurring season after season, it's much easier fixing it from a ground up level starting with quick sims and schedule, and then standardizing settings and the process for live sims. Ultimately, it's to fix the viewing experience for everyone however as HO has mentioned we need to take a temporary step back, before taking 3 steps forward to fix things, as there are flaws at the most basic level right now. No one likes multiple sims being delayed each week etc. etc.

*Fluw* · 12-03-2023, 12:01 PM

12-03-2023, 11:57 AMPapaSorin Wrote: Rigging the sim? That actually happens? Sure, I take awards season seriously, but I wouldn't join awards team to give myself every award. It's a game, I feel bad for anyone who takes it that seriously.

You bet it would! People have abused the rules, or skirted around them in grey area in the past to get a competitive advantage! Wouldn't put it past people to also rig things. Would love to think that everyone is a model citizen and won't go against the SHL rules but that's a naive outlook to have.

***WannabeFinn*** · 12-03-2023, 12:05 PM

12-03-2023, 03:11 AMr0tzbua Wrote: Not a fan of this. Takes every little piece of excitement and engagement out of the sims and will impact retention especially of new user who love seeing “themselves” doing things in the sim.

I get streamlining and delivering a unified product but this ain’t it.

I’d like to point out that the entire reason we stream our sims is to prove that they aren’t being rigged. We have ~20 seasons of FHM streaming data that suggests league interest in watching drawn out sims just isn’t there to justify the amount of man hours it demands.

I think we would all love to watch a great live sim product. But we have limitations both with the game and with our own human resources.

spidey · 12-03-2023, 12:14 PM

12-03-2023, 11:57 AMPapaSorin Wrote: Rigging the sim? That actually happens? Sure, I take awards season seriously, but I wouldn't join awards team to give myself every award. It's a game, I feel bad for anyone who takes it that seriously.

Yeah it has happened before. Simmer changed lineups and goalies (only of their own team) after submission deadline to give a competitive advantage after seeing who and what they were playing against.

Here is one example I remember as Deezy was a close friend so this one hurt to see.

https://simulationhockey.com/showthread.php?tid=4428

***Acsolap*** · 12-03-2023, 12:56 PM

Good changes and well needed. Until FHM sorts out it's live games jank it seems pointless to stream regular season games at the cost of time commitment for the simmers. The fact that next to no one was watching shl Sims live is a testament to how flawed live games are.

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***Ohtaay*** · 12-03-2023, 01:00 PM

12-03-2023, 12:56 PMAcsolap Wrote: Good changes and well needed. Until FHM sorts out it's live games jank it seems pointless to stream regular season games at the cost of time commitment for the simmers. The fact that next to no one was watching shl Sims live is a testament to how flawed live games are.

^^ This. Longer sims just lead to more burnout for the simmers, and not to mention the low engagement the streams brought in.

vic03 · 12-03-2023, 01:36 PM

So were going from low engagement on streams to none?

trella · 12-03-2023, 02:37 PM

I for one have no issues with the live sim being gone. They look like shit and are absolutely unwatchable imo. Obviously no shade to the sim team, thats on OOTP. Good change, less work for simmers who can now apply their attention towards more important things, like getting the goalie swaps right.

Also, with the live sims in the state they are in currently, commentating seems… impossible. You cant even tell who’s on the ice most of the time and the puck/players move so slow. Cant really see how commentators could do a good job, as someone who has commentated in SSL.

I also don’t see this as creating a problem regarding user retention. SHL had only box scores for years and the community was active and we retained members. Honestly, I think people actually engaged with the sim and its results more back when we were on STHS with only box scores. Thats just based on my personal experiences and feelings though.

Thanks to @karey and @JSS for the sigs!

Former USA Fed Head, Carolina Kraken Co-GM, Tampa Bay Barracuda GM

***hockeyiscool*** · 12-03-2023, 03:01 PM

12-03-2023, 02:37 PMtrella Wrote: I for one have no issues with the live sim being gone. They look like shit and are absolutely unwatchable imo. Obviously no shade to the sim team, thats on OOTP. Good change, less work for simmers who can now apply their attention towards more important things, like getting the goalie swaps right.

Also, with the live sims in the state they are in currently, commentating seems… impossible. You cant even tell who’s on the ice most of the time and the puck/players move so slow. Cant really see how commentators could do a good job, as someone who has commentated in SSL.

I also don’t see this as creating a problem regarding user retention. SHL had only box scores for years and the community was active and we retained members. Honestly, I think people actually engaged with the sim and its results more back when we were on STHS with only box scores. Thats just based on my personal experiences and feelings though.

I see you're advocating for Post game show threads Smile

trella · 12-03-2023, 03:04 PM

12-03-2023, 03:01 PMhockeyiscool Wrote: I see you're advocating for Post game show threads

I miss em fr

Thanks to @karey and @JSS for the sigs!

Former USA Fed Head, Carolina Kraken Co-GM, Tampa Bay Barracuda GM

grok · 12-03-2023, 03:24 PM

12-03-2023, 12:05 PMWannabeFinn Wrote: I’d like to point out that the entire reason we stream our sims is to prove that they aren’t being rigged. We have ~20 seasons of FHM streaming data that suggests league interest in watching drawn out sims just isn’t there to justify the amount of man hours it demands.

I think we would all love to watch a great live sim product. But we have limitations both with the game and with our own human resources.

yeah this basically. in STHS sims were only streamed to GMs to ensure there was no rigging and verify line / goalie changes between games. FHM streaming was borne from the necessity of some kind of index product since the early index was too immature to offer meaningful boxscore content. now that FHM8 has boxscore data we've actually started working with, and live sims have really limited interactions outside of the new user experience, i think the writing has been on the wall for a while.

big ups to everyone who contributed to live simming, especially @Kalakar who went absolutely sicko crazy getting all those done in the early days, but let the sim team (finally) get a little bit of a break.

r0tzbua · 12-03-2023, 04:33 PM

12-03-2023, 12:05 PMWannabeFinn Wrote: I’d like to point out that the entire reason we stream our sims is to prove that they aren’t being rigged. We have ~20 seasons of FHM streaming data that suggests league interest in watching drawn out sims just isn’t there to justify the amount of man hours it demands.

I think we would all love to watch a great live sim product. But we have limitations both with the game and with our own human resources.

dunno if you replied to the wrong post but I sure get why quick sims still need to be steamed. I only streamed IIHF in the past here but I get it.

like I said I mainly think this will impact new player retention maybe not on the live part but on the rewatch part and seeing “their” player do things that you can’t see in the index.

it was not perfect, far from it, but I’m not sure why the figuring out can’t be a parallel process and not tear it down and figure it out somewhat by doing that?

Data is good and nice but imho looking at it only from one end is the wrong approach, you may not hit the numbers on livestreams or rewatches to warrant it, but what about the "quickly click in afterwards and check what my player did" numbers. I'm not talking about people tuning in while the stream is going necessarily, trust me, I streamed IIHF for like 5-6 people throughout my whole time there and it was fine, I sent people nice clips afterwards if they did something cool and they loved it. I had fun with music and even the 5 people that watched, had fun with the streaming process in by itself. I just feel long-term this will hurt more than it will bring you.

And yea, I did quicksims in my IIHF streams, but not only, I did sprinkle it with full games to give each team at least one game a stream day so they can have their retention and highlights for those, it took time, of course, being a simmer/streamer and doing something for the league takes work for sure, but if it's for the betterment of the league and retention isn't it worth it?

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