I think that there are multiple issues the league have that is not easily blamed on only Hamilton.
You can build a team up from the absolute pits of awfulness into a strong team, a process that in itself takes two years of hard work to accomplish. Yet when you find yourself there, it simply doesn't matter because the same teams that were already good when you were at the bottom are still at the very top. You can see it as well with just how big the GM turnover has been recently. It's not worth it.
Another issue is working for your player. Arkz is so spot on here. The amount of work it takes to be good is too much. It's probably even worse for goalies, as that very much seems to be more of a lottery than based on anything else.
I would not blame the HO for most of the issues. It's simply that the league in its current format and structure is running its course, and there isn't an easy for it. The monetary system with spending 16m a season on training. The contract system that still incentivies players to take as little money as possible. The player agency of you only winning if you end up on some select teams. The time and effort that is required to even be a somewhat competent team that won't even matter in the end. An ownership group that just simply don't care about the growth of the league, only that it remains.
I still say fuck Hamilton, but the issues are bigger than just them.
I'd say we are in a crisis, although I'm not sure how bad it really is. Every LR I am a part of has grown more and more disillusioned with this league over the last 4-5 seasons. Its been pretty clear that the competitive side of this league, at this moment, is a farce. Unless you have the manpower or technical knowhow or a good deal of sim knowledge you might as well not test. You may do well in the regular season but when it comes to the playoffs and series that really matter, chances are you wont be able to stand up the top coached teams. Which is incredibly disheartening for a lot of people. I'm not sure to what extent this actually is turning people off the league but if you were to ask the general SHL population what their Nr1 grudge with the league is currently, I bet you'd get close to 3/4 mentioning parity or Hamilton specifically as the problem. Its also worth noting that. to me at least, its really unclear to what extent that is an ACTUAL problem to users and to what extent its just regurgitating the same old arguments that we see over and over again.
Additionally, and perhaps more worrying for me personally, is the state of the on-site community itself. I feel like media is at an all time low and on-forum discussions are just not at all as common as they used to be and I feel like they are much more toxic. The general environment in this league is not particularly welcoming or fun to engage with. Especially if you don't happen to share the political views of the site majority. I think thats really worrying. It may be that this is just frustrations overflowing from real world events but I still find it a worrying trend.
Personally, I dont like that so much weight is being put on the sim engine in the current iteration of our league. If min/maxing and gaming the system is what you want to do there are plenty of other games where you can do this. For me, this has always been about the people first and foremost. The users, the interactions, creating new relationships and fostering a great online community. And it feels like right now, we are slowly losing that as the users have become secondary to the sim. STHS was far from perfect but it allowed for randomness and it allowed for unexpected things, which made testing less important and the community was allowed to shine. You always had a chance. In FHM, you dont have a chance. It feels deterministic and boring and I think that is stifling the creativity and the social aspects of our league. No one is excited to write media about this league anymore because we all know what any article will say. "One of 4 teams won the cup, more than likely it was Hamilton and the other teams that were supposed to make a splash didnt because they underperformed yet again. But hey they still have good locker rooms!". Rinse and repeat.
FHM has made this league stagnant and uninteresting, its as simple as that. And while I don't blame HO for what is going on, saying we are working on it just isn't good enough anymore. I think we need a little more meat on the bones if we are to keep a large portion of our community interested. Give us SOMETHING.
It's the vibe I've been getting on the forums and discord recently for sure, although I don't really keep up much with SHL stuff now.
Honestly I think dramatically shorter careers would solve a lot of problems, there would be a lot more creativity going on with builds and media in general if you weren't locked into a multi-year relentless grind with each player.
Would also help 90% of teams in the league right now because it won't take 2 years to build a contender (and that's only if you can convince people to not leave as a UFA before they even have enough TPE to even play in the league lol).
03-03-2022, 04:01 AM(This post was last modified: 03-03-2022, 04:03 AM by sulovilen.)
03-03-2022, 03:08 AMThatguy91 Wrote: Personally, I dont like that so much weight is being put on the sim engine in the current iteration of our league. If min/maxing and gaming the system is what you want to do there are plenty of other games where you can do this. For me, this has always been about the people first and foremost. The users, the interactions, creating new relationships and fostering a great online community. And it feels like right now, we are slowly losing that as the users have become secondary to the sim.
This is it. Vast majority of us users are players, but it's not a game for us players anymore. It has turned into a game for only GMs, and a realistically winnable game for a handful of GMs. The rest of us are just passengers, pouring in hours while hoping for a change. Pouring in hours until we don't care enough anymore. A truly worrying direction.
My other huge gripe with the league was also mentioned, the toxicity. We have a culture where it is okay to hijack a serious topic and flood it with copypasta and memeing around, instead of having a civilized conversation.
A while back, there was such topic, an apology one. I started reporting the copypasta comments, because they were apparent bullying and kept drowning every attempt of a constructive discussion. Instead of any action being taken, I was told to stop reporting, because "Seriously, it's annoying". Direct quote from the mod. First time I seriously had to start thinking if this is a place I enjoy being a part of.
And yes, that person who got harassed is not on the site anymore, so well done.
03-03-2022, 03:08 AMThatguy91 Wrote: Personally, I dont like that so much weight is being put on the sim engine in the current iteration of our league. If min/maxing and gaming the system is what you want to do there are plenty of other games where you can do this. For me, this has always been about the people first and foremost. The users, the interactions, creating new relationships and fostering a great online community. And it feels like right now, we are slowly losing that as the users have become secondary to the sim.
This is it. Vast majority of us users are players, but it's not a game for us players anymore. It has turned into a game for only GMs, and a realistically winnable game for a handful of GMs. The rest of us are just passengers, pouring in hours while hoping for a change. Pouring in hours until we don't care enough anymore. A truly worrying direction.
I was thinking about all of this yesterday and this pretty simply sums up the conclusion that I came to. The league has shifted heavily to be something interacted with and played in by a few people. Player agency, in so far as what the average player is able to affect, has plummeted from where it was both in Simon and FHM. Both my experience as a player and as a GM have let me see this at both levels over the last calendar year, the results of the league are beyond what players influence at this point and the league isn't worth the time when that happens.
03-03-2022, 06:44 AM(This post was last modified: 03-03-2022, 06:45 AM by RomanesEuntDomus.)
03-03-2022, 06:18 AMsve7en Wrote:
03-03-2022, 04:01 AMsulovilen Wrote: This is it. Vast majority of us users are players, but it's not a game for us players anymore. It has turned into a game for only GMs, and a realistically winnable game for a handful of GMs. The rest of us are just passengers, pouring in hours while hoping for a change. Pouring in hours until we don't care enough anymore. A truly worrying direction.
I was thinking about all of this yesterday and this pretty simply sums up the conclusion that I came to. The league has shifted heavily to be something interacted with and played in by a few people. Player agency, in so far as what the average player is able to affect, has plummeted from where it was both in Simon and FHM. Both my experience as a player and as a GM have let me see this at both levels over the last calendar year, the results of the league are beyond what players influence at this point and the league isn't worth the time when that happens.
Yeah, that's the main issue I have come to realize as well in recent seasons. The people in charge have actually done quite a lot to try and achieve more parity through things like the contract system, TPE-distribution etc. and there are some improvements in that regard, but it's just not doing enough because we have underestimated how meaningless all these things have become compared to the role that the GMs and Coaches play these days.
This used to be a league where you could make a difference for your team by a) building a great player yourself and more importantly b) being a great user, who helps build a good locker room and who people like to be around, so that retention within the team is good while you attract players from outside team who want to be a part of all that. This just isn't really a thing anymore, you can build a 2k TPE player and attract three other 2k TPE players but it is all meaningless if you don't have a GM/Coach who has huge amounts of knowledge about FHM or a huge amount of time to build up that knowledge (which likely still won't be enough). Your impact as a player on your teams success has become so much smaller no matter if you are on one of the good teams or the bad ones, you are just a passenger most of the time while a few people fight over who is the biggest FHM-nerd with the best scripts or most time to test-sim. The SHL is supposed to be a player league, but it is firmly a GM-league at this point.
And it's not exactly something that the GMs seem to be enjoying either, given how much turnover is amongst them, how quick the ones we have seem to be burning out nowadays and how few people are interested in moving into a front office position anymore. As I said in another thread, the problem isn't so much Hamilton winning too often, the problem is Hamilton forcing everyone into a test-simming, meta-building and min-maxing arms race that nobody enjoys and which burns everyone out, especially the GMs. We need to stop that arms race asap, be it through limitations on test-simming, line tactics or other measures. We need big chances on how being a GM works compared to how it is now because right now, it is draining the life and energy out of a lot of people, both the ones in the job and the ones affected by it.
When I first joined SHL I created because of my buddy @ErM and didn’t think I’d get as addicted as I did. I don’t really know jack shit about hockey back then and that has never really changed. I love the people that I’ve come close with and it’s been quite a wild ride.
To go off of that though, I am certain for at least awhile I will not recreate once Vladmir Petrov Retires. As a lot of others have stated in this thread, I feel like I’ve been pouring so much time into this player to see very little return. The SHL has become more of a chore then pleasure and I just don’t really enjoy myself and hockey. A big reason why I keep updating and all that jazz is because I don’t want to let down the homies on Tampa Bay.
I just feel like at this point I’m banging my head against the wall and nothing is really going the way I had envisioned it. That’s not against the league or anything, I think that’s more just how I excepted Vlad to go to how he actually is going.
I don’t really know how much my opinion matters on said subject, as I don’t really do much on the forums. I just do my PTs, and all that jazz and post dad jokes on the Tampa Bay Twitter, and that’s about it anymore. Also to reiterate what other people have stated in here as well, I’ve noticed as of late it feels, the community has gotten more and more toxic whenever something happens. I feel like that can be really draining for someone who doesn’t really come to the forums but do to his weekly stuff.
I also wouldn’t really put all the blame on Hamilton, as some have done already. I will say that when you see the same few teams at the top over and over again, it could be a bit disheartening, especially as I feel like when you’re stuck with one player for so long, and you just realize they have not amounted to anything, why keep pushing?
I don’t have any answers either for this issues or situations. I haven’t really tried to think of any and doubt I will. I would just more so say that these are just my frustrations and I get where other people are feeling the same way. I do not think that it is over dramatic or what have you, it’s just a hard situation to fix
I feel like I’ve rambled on a lot here, and that’s my bad. Work thoughts at 530 am can get you like that. Hope everyone has a wonderful day.
I don't know if I would say we are at crisis level yet, but like many others I have definitely noticed a shift in attitude. We have longtime dedicated users leaving/retiring with no plans to recreate and many cite the same reasons for it.
It's hard to motivate people by saying "well maybe in 5-10 seasons after the rebuild we will be good enough to compete, but in the meantime it wont be pretty" With how long it takes to turnaround a roster, people are getting burnt out waiting to finally be good.
It's also less interesting seeing the same teams on top over and over again. Sure one or two might phase in an out over a few seasons but feeling like the end of the season is already predictable makes it harder to care about what happens in a season. No one wants to go watch their team get stomped in the sim over and over again.
Many of the recent GM step downs have also cited the same burnout, stress, and lack of enjoyment. I know by the end of my tenure I found it hard to care anymore because nothing I tried to do seemed to make a difference.
I would say rather than a crisis, we are at a crossroads for the league. It can go in a few different directions, but where it goes will determine if people want to continue to engage with it or not.
03-03-2022, 03:08 AMThatguy91 Wrote: Personally, I dont like that so much weight is being put on the sim engine in the current iteration of our league. If min/maxing and gaming the system is what you want to do there are plenty of other games where you can do this. For me, this has always been about the people first and foremost. The users, the interactions, creating new relationships and fostering a great online community. And it feels like right now, we are slowly losing that as the users have become secondary to the sim.
This is it. Vast majority of us users are players, but it's not a game for us players anymore. It has turned into a game for only GMs, and a realistically winnable game for a handful of GMs. The rest of us are just passengers, pouring in hours while hoping for a change. Pouring in hours until we don't care enough anymore. A truly worrying direction.
My other huge gripe with the league was also mentioned, the toxicity. We have a culture where it is okay to hijack a serious topic and flood it with copypasta and memeing around, instead of having a civilized conversation.
A while back, there was such topic, an apology one. I started reporting the copypasta comments, because they were apparent bullying and kept drowning every attempt of a constructive discussion. Instead of any action being taken, I was told to stop reporting, because "Seriously, it's annoying". Direct quote from the mod. First time I seriously had to start thinking if this is a place I enjoy being a part of.
And yes, that person who got harassed is not on the site anymore, so well done.
I had a lot of downtime at work today and was thinking about the SHL and came to the exact same conclusion about the state of player agency. To me it feels like you can earn all you want, but realistically if you want to win you should ask your GM to tell you how best to build your player, and beyond that any roles and tactics decide the rest and are decided by your GMs/coaches. Something needs to give agency back to the players.
I joined the SHL 17 months ago and this is my only sim league and it will probably the only sim league I'll ever join. I joined because I love hockey and I didn't expect the social aspect would be as strong as it is. I've never had the luck to be on one of the top teams. Don't get my wrong, I love my team in Edmonton, but aside from a flash of brilliance in S61, we've only won 1 playoff series and were swept to be thrown out of the playoffs on all four occasions. I reached the Finals only once, in S57 with Anaheim, but my player was mostly a non-factor back then. My prime J years were spent on a rebuild and the Blizzard are currently in a rebuild, so I've seen my fair share of losses and not a lot of playoff wins.
Back in my junior days, I tried GMing as the Co-GM in Anaheim and was already in charge of tactics a bit beforehand. I used to think I had a good knowledge of FHM, I've been playing for many years and won Stanley Cups in online leagues, heck, I even run an online league myself. But after my short time GMing, I realise I know nothing about FHM and all my efforts were destroyed by another GM understanding the game better than I did, because we had the TPE advantage back then and our team was supposed to win. After that happened a couple of seasons in a row, I've decided to give up GMing, it wasn't worth it anymore. I could talk a lot about the state of the SMJHL and the two philosophies down in the development league: winning at any price or developping future SHL players, but that's for another day.
I was really excited when my player graduated to the SHL, but the more Kaapo is playing in the big league, the less I enjoy it. It may be because my team is rebuilding right now, but I don't see the point of watching the live sims anymore. Seeing my team lose 7-0, outshot 71 to 11 just isn't fun. I know this is fun for people on teams who win by a lot, but let's be honest the vast majority of users isn't on a dominant team. This is all maybe because i've never been on one of those teams, maybe because my player has never sniffed a point per game, maybe because i've never won any awards, but for people who aren't on good teams, the hockey-side of SHL sucks at the moment. I'm max earning since I created and my player has never been elite. With only two seasons left before Kaapo hits regression, I wonder if that day will come.
But despite all that, I don't think I'll leave Kaapo and will continue to max earn anyway. Why?, you may ask. Because the team in Edmonton deserves it. Remember I used to believe the hockey-side would get me to stay, but right now, the social-side of SHL is what's keeping me going. I'm in the Blizzard locker room far more often than I envisioned. I used to plan on recreating after Kaapo is done, but if I was in a situation where I had to recreate today, I wouldn't and it wouldn't bother me at all. The hockey-side of SHL just isn't interesting for me at the moment at all. I could very well retire my player and stay in the locker room to hang out without a player and my experience with SHL wouldn't change. So unless the hockey-side of the league changes for the better, I won't be recreating. I'm optimistic this will change before Kaapo leaves the SHL though, because we keep hearing changes are coming.
Regarding toxicity and whatnot, I don't want to start an argument or anything, so I'll keep it brief and won't comment any further on the issue I'm about to talk about. I was, like all other alum, kicked out of the Anaheim locker room. I devoted a good chunk of my time to that team and was contributing to it right until the very end, although not as much as I used to. This left a very bad taste in my mouth. It feels like everything I've ever done for the team (although it's not much when you look at it for the outside because ANA never had success while I was there) amounted to nothing. I was thrown out unceremoniously, like all other former members of the team, from S45 to today. It's another thing that kinda hit me the wrong way and my motivation for SHL-related stuff took a hit.
I'm mostly quiet on the forums and rarely chime in, but this issue hits close to home for me, because I used to love this place, even if the sim gods were never on my side, and now I don't and I don't think I'm the only one who feels that way.
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