10-11-2019, 07:45 AM(This post was last modified: 10-11-2019, 07:58 AM by Baelor Swift.)
SHL "Hopes" to Address Job Pay Incongruencies
For perhaps the millionth time in recent memory, the SHL Head Office has affirmed a commitment to addressing incongruences in league job pay, aiming to ensure fair pay for the members who put in the extra effort to ensure that the league functions well. Well, commitment is a light word. According to SHL Commissioner @Eggy216, it is his "hope to have something out next season for people to criticize." This unclear and extended deadline seems to only be a delayal of a long awaited change for many employed by the league to carry out essential functions ranging from standard operational jobs such as player updating, banking, grading, and transaction tracking to league history-related jobs such as awards committees, all-star committees, hall of fame committees, and more. But, honestly, changes to job pay is long overdue. And the SHL HO needs to set an uncharacteristically ambitious deadline to update job pay.
There are two reasons why job pay must be addressed promptly. First, without all these dedicated members putting in their time in exchange for a currency that is only used within the SHL community (unless you're dealing with 701 AKA Yung Guap God), the league will crumble or, at least, run poorly. Continuing to offer low payment for essential job functions creates high job turnover and encourages instability in league operations, helping to ensure that positive changes and improvements never really gain enough traction to be implemented. Perhaps the league is worried about TPE inflation through the influx of too much money into the system. While that is a legitimate concern, it is also one that could and should be immediately shot down.
The fact is, the league does have a serious SHL cash issue. And this can be very easily observed by venturing into the SHL Media and Graphics forums, where members repeatedly churn out mediocre at best material for almost the entirety of the league to ignore completely. The media forum is littered with word vomit articles, pasted spreadsheets of player dick sizes, Schleimerwitz Indexes, and BMI, and podcasts that are not even the least bit engaging. The graphics forum is filled with low quality signatures that offer little incentive to improve due to a limited return on taking risks and trying new things. Overall, the league has created a system where members are, primarily, churning out low effort content over and over to fill their bank accounts. While this is unavoidable, the fact is that, in terms of effort for reward, generating low effort and low quality content is a much more efficient method to afford weekly trainings and seasonal equipment than it is to generate content that adds to the SHL community or to dedicate time to league jobs that enrich the SHL experience for the entire user base.
So the second issue we have here is that the current job pay actually discourages members from putting their efforts into activities that actually benefit the league. When I can make five times what I make by literally writing pure nonsense about 17 draftees than by heading the SHL Awards Committee, there is a serious problem. I've made the case over and over to different SHL HO representatives over the last handful of seasons (most of whom have since left the head office) for why the payment for the entire awards committee should be increased. The responses have been empty platitudes. Repeatedly being assured that change is happening and is imminent only to end up with no changes at all. Maybe they don't feel it's justified because our biases prevented Gordie Boomhoover from being nominated for Playoff MVP but, really, this goes deeper than just the awards committee. Pay people to do jobs and to do them well. That is what I am asking for and what is needed to see the continued improvement of the SHL. Hell, even the head office should be paid because a lack of pay doesn't seem to really be working well to encourage accountability and action.
In my opinion, time really is up for the head office to make long-term commitments to addressing job pay. It needs to be a priority. At this point, entrusting them to make changes has, for whatever reason, been ineffective. Perhaps it is high time for the league's members to take matters into their own hands. I know I've waited long enough for this and now I'm ready to force action, if need be.
To make it clear, I don't mean to criticise individual HO members here because I know many members, current and past, have tried to affect positive change through their positions and have ultimately been disenchanted by the system, for whatever reason. And some have even been able to make positive changes. This is less an indictment on individuals and more a criticism of the system that is creating inaction.
08-24-2018, 01:08 PMWannabeFinn Wrote: Ah yes, the veteran meme player. A surefire bet for maybe 400 TPE
If you have an issue with pay, step-down and write those media articles you're talking about.
If you look at the job postings section, it's pretty clear we have a saturated job market in the SHL. I can only speak for myself, but I've applied for a few jobs over the past months and haven't gotten anything and that's as a GM on the site.
Either the pay is fine for these jobs or people are getting intrinsic value from having an important role on the site. I don't see why we need to make it more difficult for new members to get jobs.
10-11-2019, 08:28 AM(This post was last modified: 10-11-2019, 08:28 AM by WannabeFinn.)
10-11-2019, 08:17 AMTommySalami Wrote: If you have an issue with pay, step-down and write those media articles you're talking about.
If you look at the job postings section, it's pretty clear we have a saturated job market in the SHL. I can only speak for myself, but I've applied for a few jobs over the past months and haven't gotten anything and that's as a GM on the site.
Either the pay is fine for these jobs or people are getting intrinsic value from having an important role on the site. I don't see why we need to make it more difficult for new members to get jobs.
What better way to burn through a pool of candidates than to underpay them for their efforts. Or in the case of HO, don’t pay them at all.
This was the main thrust of my application to join HO, so I can tell you that it is definitely one of the key issues we’re considering but nothing can be done overnight, we have to carefully consider every job (especially if we’re going to reduce pay) so it takes time.
Your point would work better if you went into any kind of specifics instead of just saying the pay is low.
What do you consider to be "fair" for specific jobs?
Also writing a wall of garbage will always be easier than doing a job, so if someone would rather take little effort and give themselves money that way they will always take that route other than actual jobs that require work and commitment.
10-11-2019, 08:28 AMWannabeFinn Wrote:
10-11-2019, 08:17 AMTommySalami Wrote: If you have an issue with pay, step-down and write those media articles you're talking about.
If you look at the job postings section, it's pretty clear we have a saturated job market in the SHL. I can only speak for myself, but I've applied for a few jobs over the past months and haven't gotten anything and that's as a GM on the site.
Either the pay is fine for these jobs or people are getting intrinsic value from having an important role on the site. I don't see why we need to make it more difficult for new members to get jobs.
What better way to burn through a pool of candidates than to underpay them for their efforts. Or in the case of HO, don’t pay them at all.
Which jobs aren't being paid that you believe should be?
Alonzo Garbanzo Final Tallies (Among Defensemen):
2nd in Goals (208), All-Time Assists Leader (765)*, All-Time Points Leader (973), 3rd in Hits (2587), All-Time Blocked Shots Leader (1882)* *All-Time Leader Among All Skaters Player Profile | Update Thread
10-11-2019, 08:28 AMWannabeFinn Wrote: What better way to burn through a pool of candidates than to underpay them for their efforts. Or in the case of HO, don’t pay them at all.
It's pretty simple, increase pay for positions that are hard to fill, don't increase pay on positions that have have stability. My argument is right now there's not a lot of turnover in positions, so why increase pay? If there is an issue with pay, tell HO I plan on leaving if it's not increased. If you're not willing to leave your position because the pay is too low, then the pay isn't really too low.
10-11-2019, 08:57 AMArGarBarGar Wrote: Your point would work better if you went into any kind of specifics instead of just saying the pay is low.
What do you consider to be "fair" for specific jobs?
Also writing a wall of garbage will always be easier than doing a job, so if someone would rather take little effort and give themselves money that way they will always take that route other than actual jobs that require work and commitment.
10-11-2019, 08:28 AMWannabeFinn Wrote: What better way to burn through a pool of candidates than to underpay them for their efforts. Or in the case of HO, don’t pay them at all.
Which jobs aren't being paid that you believe should be?
10-11-2019, 09:18 AM(This post was last modified: 10-11-2019, 09:19 AM by RomanesEuntDomus.)
I'm more annoyed by the constant delaying than by the pay itself. If HO were to say "No raise, sorry" then I could live with that, but for seasons now we've been hearing "we'll talk about it" and "we'll have something on it next season" and nothing ever happens, and that feels quite disrespectful after a while.
Besides, if HO wants to review the league-wide pay structure but they find that task to be too monumental then they don't have to do it alone. You guys can always try to bring in help, maybe even create a dedicated task force for this topic with people on it that have held a lot of different jobs in the past or like to juggle spreadsheets. It isn't that complicated I'd argue, first set up a list of the existing jobs and their pay, then start looking for inconsistencies. Then talk to people who have held these jobs in the past and ask how much work they'd say goes into the job on a weekly/seasonal basis and if they think the current pay is fair. We won't get to a point where we will have an hourly wage that works fairly across all jobs, but there should still be some comparability. If you've identified jobs where the pay seems too low compared to the time invested or where there is a regular lack of applicants, look into raising pay for these and send your recommendations to the HO for them to give their Thumbs Up or Down.
PS: And yes HO should definitely be paid, no idea why it still isn't. In a way it is like the simmer job, it is so draining and time consuming that a lot of people on it will find themselves not writing articles or doing other on-site activites anymore, so they should be compensated for that.
10-11-2019, 09:39 AM(This post was last modified: 10-11-2019, 09:49 AM by Baelor Swift.)
10-11-2019, 08:57 AMArGarBarGar Wrote: Your point would work better if you went into any kind of specifics instead of just saying the pay is low.
First of all, you're in HO so if you're doing your job, you should know I have done this and provided very, very specific reasons why the pay for the SHL Awards Committee is low.
Second, I already know what would happen if I did a job pay audit on my own. It would be ignored and I would be investing time and effort for literally no reason.
Here is what I sent, which I have been assured has been put up for discussion in HO because I don't want anyone thinking that your point suggesting that I have not specifically stated why job pay should be increased has merit:
Quote:Hi Eggy,
I want to continue a discussion that I've been having with HO for a number of seasons now and I feel is well past time for a decision to be made. I don't think it's a very difficult thing to make a decision on nor a decision that could really have any negative impacts on the league as a whole. Please feel free to let me know if this assumption isn't correct. But, basically, I am really urging the Head Office to approve a pay increase to $4,000,000 per season for the SHL Awards Committee. With a current pay of $2,000,000 per season, even ignoring the fact that the pay for various jobs around the league are not proportionate to the requirements of the positions (I want to ignore this because I think going down this route distracts from why the awards committee deserves more and because it seems this has long been a discussion that the HO has been tossing around without being able to take action. I want to focus on the SHL Awards Committee).
I think many will agree that, since I have taken over in Season 46, I and the bulk of the committee that has been around and every bit as important as myself since I took over as head has performed remarkably well. While controversy surrounding awards is almost innate to the designation of awards as perspectives will always differ, I think it's been greatly reduced because we have taken this awards process seriously as an essential aspect of SHL history and have worked hard to ensure time and effort is put into all nominations and voting. In the past, it often seemed like voting was done haphazardly and, honestly, that would probably be quite correct if you look at how awards voting was conducted in recent history.
The key to the improvement of the awards voting process, I think, has been the focus on the analysis of all available information, requiring members to defend their nominations using the multiple sources available (index, possession metrics, and point shares), and the two-step process. Essentially, not only are all committee members required to submit nominations, place their votes, and participate in discussions including the near-seasonal discussions on nuances of different awards (hot topics included the Bojo Biscuit Trophy (S46), Mike Honcho Trophy (S48), and Co-Award Winners, a specifically for the Aidan Richan Trophy (S49)) but committee members are expected to be well-versed in basic and advanced hockey statistics and understand how to interpret these statistics to establish player value. Comparing various players and determining those who are truly worthy of winning awards can be a painstaking process that not just takes time but significant critical thought.
It is for the reasons mentioned above that I am proposing a pay increase to $4,000,000 per season. Please refer to the articles published after the S46, S47, and S48 award voting processes by BDonini as well as the awards voting procedures in the SHL Awards Committee Job Forum to gain additional insights. If you have any more questions about this that may help to make a decision, please feel free to ask me. Additionally, Tomasnz should be able to help as a member of both the SHL HO and SHL Awards Committee.
Thank you.
08-24-2018, 01:08 PMWannabeFinn Wrote: Ah yes, the veteran meme player. A surefire bet for maybe 400 TPE
10-11-2019, 08:28 AMWannabeFinn Wrote: What better way to burn through a pool of candidates than to underpay them for their efforts. Or in the case of HO, don’t pay them at all.
It's pretty simple, increase pay for positions that are hard to fill, don't increase pay on positions that have have stability. My argument is right now there's not a lot of turnover in positions, so why increase pay? If there is an issue with pay, tell HO I plan on leaving if it's not increased. If you're not willing to leave your position because the pay is too low, then the pay isn't really too low.
Now I don't know how many jobs there are in the league but it would be my guess that there are technically enough jobs where everyone who wanted one could get one. However, I'm sure that there are multiple instances of individual members having multiple league jobs. Maybe increasing pay could limit the number of members with multiple jobs and actually desaturate the job market? I don't have any specific data on this so I can't say for sure what the situation is like but it's definitely not as clear cut as you make it out to be. And by keeping pay low, it definitely does not encourage quality output in terms of carrying out league functions.
08-24-2018, 01:08 PMWannabeFinn Wrote: Ah yes, the veteran meme player. A surefire bet for maybe 400 TPE
10-11-2019, 08:57 AMArGarBarGar Wrote: Your point would work better if you went into any kind of specifics instead of just saying the pay is low.
First of all, you're in HO so if you're doing your job, you should know I have done this and provided very, very specific reasons why the pay for the SHL Awards Committee is low.
Second, I already know what would happen if I did a job pay audit on my own. It would be ignored and I would be investing time and effort for literally no reason.
I am more looking for you to bring up the actual pay in public so it isn't just you trying to galvanize people to rag on the HO based on vague concerns about "pay".
I personally think your ask was too much and I am not sure why you believe the bump in pay to be THAT high is justified.
Alonzo Garbanzo Final Tallies (Among Defensemen):
2nd in Goals (208), All-Time Assists Leader (765)*, All-Time Points Leader (973), 3rd in Hits (2587), All-Time Blocked Shots Leader (1882)* *All-Time Leader Among All Skaters Player Profile | Update Thread
10-11-2019, 10:06 AM(This post was last modified: 10-11-2019, 10:16 AM by Baelor Swift.)
10-11-2019, 09:46 AMArGarBarGar Wrote:
10-11-2019, 09:39 AMBaelor Swift Wrote: First of all, you're in HO so if you're doing your job, you should know I have done this and provided very, very specific reasons why the pay for the SHL Awards Committee is low.
Second, I already know what would happen if I did a job pay audit on my own. It would be ignored and I would be investing time and effort for literally no reason.
I am more looking for you to bring up the actual pay in public so it isn't just you trying to galvanize people to rag on the HO based on vague concerns about "pay".
I personally think your ask was too much and I am not sure why you believe the bump in pay to be THAT high is justified.
I mean, I think I made it clear that my concerns about job pay on a wider scale are based on two key points:
-Right now, peoples' efforts are focused on generating low effort and low quality content than on things that help improve the community and the league as a whole because of the way SHL money is awarded.
-Low job pay encourages people to not fulfill the requirements of their jobs with as much effort or passion as they would otherwise and, as a job head, I feel like the pay to the committee members does not allow me to ask as much of them as I wish I could. For example, if someone doesn't put in is much effort as I would like when providing support for their reasoning for nominating people for awards, I honestly feel like I either have to choose between just letting it slide or risking that member burning out and losing them from the committee.
And if you think the ask was too much, say why. I said why I think it should be that much and while you're not obligated to tell me why you believe I asked for too much, it would be appreciated so that there can be a dialogue and some give and take.
08-24-2018, 01:08 PMWannabeFinn Wrote: Ah yes, the veteran meme player. A surefire bet for maybe 400 TPE
10-11-2019, 10:21 AM(This post was last modified: 10-11-2019, 10:22 AM by Baelor Swift.)
Also @ArGarBarGar would you agree that HOF Committee should be decreased to about $364,000 per season? Because in the SHL Awards Committee, we nominate, from the entire pool of SHL players, between 3-5 players for a total of 11 awards. And then vote on each of those 11. The process for making nominations alone (and not voting) for a single award is about the same effort as each member of the HOF Committee has to make in a single season. So, realistically, SHL Awards Committee members should be paid, bare minimum, 11 times what an HOF Committee Member makes.
08-24-2018, 01:08 PMWannabeFinn Wrote: Ah yes, the veteran meme player. A surefire bet for maybe 400 TPE
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