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Evok · 09-24-2020, 12:12 AM

09-23-2020, 02:43 PMcharlieconway Wrote: Mandate at least 12 games a season for backups. Also, consider having them on their own contract tier system, so we don't get to the twisted (and IMO inevitable) point where teams will be hurt for having a high TPE starter.

salary cap hit maybe, but there's absolutely no reason we should be paid less than everyone

*Carpy48* · 09-24-2020, 02:16 AM

09-23-2020, 03:28 PMTate Wrote: This is a great article and I have a few comments.

First - This is always how it is. When I created I was told not to create a goalie because it’s always saturated and you have to out compete others if you ever want to be a starter. I assure you that if you stick with it, you will.

Second - There is no way in hell I’ll be switching positions at this point. I have literally worked my ass off for over a year to get to where I am now and so help me God I will finally get a chance to enjoy it before I call it a career.

Third - I will never, ever, be a goalie again after I retire. Fuck the stress that it brings and how long it takes to be good.

/End

Can I just quote this and say "me too" (only that I've been working on my player for a little longer)?

Since we already know goalies don't really make a big difference in FHM, then why in the world do we still count wins for goalie awards? The teams clearly win games because the TEAM is good and it's not up to the goalie. This way of thinking needs to change - hopefully (I know that's not going to happen). It worked maybe with STHS, but we should've changed the way goalie awards are given out with the switch to FHM or at least after figuring out goalies don't matter much. Basically I could quote here what @KlusteR already said earlier, I'm just late to the discussion.

Either that or we just ignore wins, let teams have their tandems and simply look at other statistics entirely for which goalie was the best that year. I'm both still frustrated and for the most part have accepted the situation that I'll never have many awards or cups like other (former) goalies in the league, even if I'll make it to 2k. Before the switch to FHM I thought if I just stayed active I would eventually be lucky enough to make a HOF player, but right now it looks like that's only possible for skaters or goalies on good teams.

That being said I like the suggestions for young goalies that have never played in the SHL to get a free position switch. And yes, this isn't the first and won't be the last time that we have too many goalies.

**RomanesEuntDomus** · 09-24-2020, 04:49 AM

I think we need to be very clear that we are talking about two separate issues here that are slightly connected, but still very different:

The perceived logjam on the one hand, and the fact that goalies are too similar and that good goalies don't matter enough on the other hand.

As I already mentioned, I don't see that "logjam" right now. Maybe we are on our way to it but it's not nearly here yet when half the teams in the league don't even have a goalie prospect. People severely underestimate that not everyone who is a prospect or even a young quality starter right now will stay active or will stay on his team forever. We need extra options and reserves and yes. some people will have to play back-up for a while. If you keep working on your player then this will just be a short-term issue, nobody who is really active will be at risk of being a career back-up who never gets a chance at a starter spot. Ultimately the goalie position is quite different from the skater positions and yes, probably a bit harder and more annoying as well, just like it is in real life to an extent where mostly crazy people end up playing it Tongue

Now regarding the "being a goalie isn't fun" and "good goalies don't matter enough" issue that people have elaborated on over the last few posts: this does seem to be the case right now for sure. But just look at the current goalie update scale and how much easier than the Skater one it is, how can you claim that this won't be solveable through the update scale when there is such a clear discrepancy right now? Make the update scale harsher for them or consider creating a different model altogether that fits the position, and you will see separation between 800 and 1500 TPE goalies again.

As I said before, that doesn't mean that I'm againt people being able to switch out of goalie during their career. I'm not a huge fan of it from a storytelling perspective but if there are enough people who feel "trapped" in their position then it does make sense. However, one thing that I think we need to factor in here is that limiting it to the first 3-5 seasons of someones career probably wouldn't work because I don't think most people become frustrated with the position until later. During their early seasons they are probably still having a good time as a send-down, then the first 1-2 seasons in the SHL are fresh and new, maybe they are a starter with a good rookle campaign or a back-up on a successful team and don't mind... The frustration probably won't start settling in until this point. So we would have to allow these switches for a significant portion of peoples career, not just the first three seasons or so. And how many people are really gonna switch to a Skater midway through their careers when they have already missed their juniors experience as that player and have severely hindered their chances at good career numbers or an HOF bid? Might just as well recreate altogether at this point. But yeah as I said, not against the idea in general.

So these are the measure I think we should take:

1. Re-work the goalie update scale, either make it harsher or introduce a new, more tailored and creative system to develop goalies.
2. Change how the salary cap applies to goalies. Most radical solution would be to pay goalies just as we pay them now, but just not have them count against the cap at all. A more complicated one would be to only have half of their salary count towards the cap or something along those lines. I would actually prefer to not have them count against the cap altogether since it would make having two active goalies an attractive option instead of a detriment.
3. Allow people to switch from goalie to skater once in their careers.
(4. Consider raising the minimum amount of back-up games, but probably keep this tabled until we have seen the effects of the other measures.)
(5. Consider another expansion, not just for goalies but because we might be running into similar problems for Skaters at some point as well.)

And lastly, a more general note not so much regarding this topic but all the various roster discussions we have had: Our cap should be somewhat flexible. Just like in real life it should be able to rise or drop on a seasonabl basis depending on not the financial situation like in reality, but the roster situations around the league. We just essentially "dropped" the salary cap with the parity matters this off-season and now we gotta see how they played out. If we see good players being priced out of not just their team but multiple teams on a regular basis then we can simply raise the cap by a few million instead of looking for complete overhauls or going for another expansion right away - although that next expansion could be closer than we think anyway.

Thor · 09-24-2020, 07:06 AM

Hi, still here - updating less frequently since I'm just banking, and don't have any money for equipment/training but still doing just about everything else I can! No danger of me going fully IA!

Waters · 09-24-2020, 08:21 AM

@"Awesomecakes" go inactive already

spooked · 09-24-2020, 08:41 AM

the real question is, why would you keep a goalie above 1600

***HoltzFan10*** · 09-24-2020, 08:57 AM

Why tf do we choose GOTY by wins?? Not by save percentage? Not game rating? Not win shares??? Excuse me?????

*Carpy48* · 09-24-2020, 09:17 AM

09-24-2020, 08:57 AMBoucherFan12 Wrote: Why tf do we choose GOTY by wins?? Not by save percentage? Not game rating? Not win shares??? Excuse me?????

I've been trying to find out, but nobody seems to care. Wins and GAA are not goalie stats. Shutouts seem to be relatively random too, nothing you can influence by building your player in a certain way.

Jobin · 09-24-2020, 09:18 AM

09-24-2020, 08:21 AMWaters Wrote: @"Awesomecakes" go inactive already

ok

charlieconway · 09-24-2020, 09:22 AM

09-24-2020, 12:12 AMEvok Wrote:
09-23-2020, 02:43 PMcharlieconway Wrote: Mandate at least 12 games a season for backups. Also, consider having them on their own contract tier system, so we don't get to the twisted (and IMO inevitable) point where teams will be hurt for having a high TPE starter.

salary cap hit maybe, but there's absolutely no reason we should be paid less than everyone

Yeah, the "own contract tier system" thing was aimed at making high TPE goalies more palatable to GMs, I think goalies should still be paid what they would normally.

***HoltzFan10*** · 09-24-2020, 09:54 AM

09-24-2020, 09:17 AMCarpy48 Wrote:
09-24-2020, 08:57 AMBoucherFan12 Wrote: Why tf do we choose GOTY by wins?? Not by save percentage? Not game rating? Not win shares??? Excuse me?????

I've been trying to find out, but nobody seems to care. Wins and GAA are not goalie stats. Shutouts seem to be relatively random too, nothing you can influence by building your player in a certain way.

Honestly, I thought it was so completely obvious that GOTY should be based off of sv%, game rating, and win share that I didn’t even THINK that I would NEED to tell people that. By wins and GAA?? Seriously?? Carpy is one of the best goalies in the league and because of the team in front of him his stats wouldn’t be “GOTY worthy”. Really? The fact that I need to type this entire paragraph out is honestly embarrassing and disappointing.

If this does not change soon I propose that instead of giving the awards committee to vote for GOTY, we give it to the actual goalies, who *actually* know how to judge the best goalies. We have our own server so doing this will be so incredibly easy.

**RomanesEuntDomus** · 09-24-2020, 10:21 AM

09-24-2020, 09:54 AMBoucherFan12 Wrote:
09-24-2020, 09:17 AMCarpy48 Wrote: I've been trying to find out, but nobody seems to care. Wins and GAA are not goalie stats. Shutouts seem to be relatively random too, nothing you can influence by building your player in a certain way.
Honestly, I thought it was so completely obvious that GOTY should be based off of sv%, game rating, and win share that I didn’t even THINK that I would NEED to tell people that. By wins and GAA?? Seriously?? Carpy is one of the best goalies in the league and because of the team in front of him his stats wouldn’t be “GOTY worthy”. Really? The fact that I need to type this entire paragraph out is honestly embarrassing and disappointing.

If this does not change soon I propose that instead of giving the awards committee to vote for GOTY, we give it to the actual goalies, who *actually* know how to judge the best goalies. We have our own server so doing this will be so incredibly easy.

How about you take a step back, take a deep breath and stop riling each other up into some weird conspiracy theory? We don't determine candidates just based on Wins and GAA, this simply isn't true. We look at a whole bunch of stats and do take the teams around people into account as well.

Look, I like Carpy but the fact that he has a ton of TPE should be irrelevant for the Awards. He simply didn't have a very impressive season statistically, which might say something about the problems with this leagues goalie system and infrastructure and also might be due to his teams performance, but he wasn't snubbed from any Awards.

And if we look at Carpy using specifically the stats you mentioned (Save Percentage, Game rating), this is what we find:

6th in Save-Percentage, behind goalies on good teams (MAN, NOLA), bad teams (MIN, BAP) and average teams (NEW)
4th in Game-Rating, a stat that I find kinda questionable btw, but once again he was beaten by goalies on better (NEW) as well as other bad teams (BAP, MIN)
Don't have win shares available to me right now but feel free to share them.

And these are like his best stats, in all other categories he is even further back. These are not GOTY numbers. Tegernako and probably Del Veccio would have a better claim than him. In hindsight Tegernako would probably have deserved a nom but that's about it.

***Ragnar*** · 09-24-2020, 11:16 AM

It's time to unionize the players and overthrow the fascist SHL HO.

Sigs by Me, Merica, High Stick King, Rum_Ham, Jess, vulfzilla, enigmatic, and Carpy

❤!! RIP to the big homies 701 and Mac !!❤

***Wally*** · 09-24-2020, 11:42 AM

@Steelhead77 and @~~Mike Izzy~~ take note... Going inactive. All projects must be suspended til further notice.

Also, TPE doesn’t matter nor the changes to Vildes build last off-season. Must revert to old build.

***HoltzFan10*** · 09-24-2020, 11:46 AM

09-24-2020, 10:21 AMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote:
09-24-2020, 09:54 AMBoucherFan12 Wrote: Honestly, I thought it was so completely obvious that GOTY should be based off of sv%, game rating, and win share that I didn’t even THINK that I would NEED to tell people that. By wins and GAA?? Seriously?? Carpy is one of the best goalies in the league and because of the team in front of him his stats wouldn’t be “GOTY worthy”. Really? The fact that I need to type this entire paragraph out is honestly embarrassing and disappointing.

If this does not change soon I propose that instead of giving the awards committee to vote for GOTY, we give it to the actual goalies, who *actually* know how to judge the best goalies. We have our own server so doing this will be so incredibly easy.

How about you take a step back, take a deep breath and stop riling each other up into some weird conspiracy theory? We don't determine candidates just based on Wins and GAA, this simply isn't true. We look at a whole bunch of stats and do take the teams around people into account as well.

Look, I like Carpy but the fact that he has a ton of TPE should be irrelevant for the Awards. He simply didn't have a very impressive season statistically, which might say something about the problems with this leagues goalie system and infrastructure and also might be due to his teams performance, but he wasn't snubbed from any Awards.

And if we look at Carpy using specifically the stats you mentioned (Save Percentage, Game rating), this is what we find:

6th in Save-Percentage, behind goalies on good teams (MAN, NOLA), bad teams (MIN, BAP) and average teams (NEW)
4th in Game-Rating, a stat that I find kinda questionable btw, but once again he was beaten by goalies on better (NEW) as well as other bad teams (BAP, MIN)
Don't have win shares available to me right now but feel free to share them.

And these are like his best stats, in all other categories he is even further back. These are not GOTY numbers. Tegernako and probably Del Veccio would have a better claim than him. In hindsight Tegernako would probably have deserved a nom but that's about it.

My and Carpy’s win shares were among the highest in the league. Now, that’s not a reason for why either of us should’ve won it. Who I can argue for though is for Markus or for Eller to have won.

Can I also ask what stats you guys used exactly to determine GOTY?

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